Singletrack Mountain Bike Magazine

• Overview
• Bike Forum
• Chat Forum
• For Sale
• Wanted
• Forum Help
• Classified Rules

Chat Forum

1. totalshell - Member

   Tragedy 92 football fans lost thier lives. 1989 22 years ago. i was just about to buy my first mtb.

   i went to a lot of football back then, it was nt like today fans were crowed into crumbling terraces with 'crush' bars, football fans at games were not like they are today violence was common place, fighting inside and outside the ground at most games. racial abuse was common place. coppers had no idea how to handle crowds and stweards did not exist.

   the coppers got the blame in court at all the inquiries etc fans were blameless.

   so why is this all under the microscope again? what is been sought? what do the cabinet papers of the day contain? ( most of the cabinet from 1989 are now dead)

   a tragic set of circumstances came together the result of which was the horrific loss of life as a regular match goer today i cant envisage similar happening again so i can only ask what is 'the truth' that has been allegedly hidden?

   Posted 7 months ago #
2. Rusty Spanner - Member

   The police lied and blamed the fans.
   The government and media both did the same.

   All people want is to know the truth.

   If these documents are not released, people will be fully justified in reaching their own conclusions.

   Posted 7 months ago #
3. duckman - Member

   Taylor report attributed the disaster to police failings.Fans rushed an exit and headed into the main central pen,causing a surge against the fence.Police did not manage the huge numbers suddenly in the ground,and allowed them into the central areas,which were already full. Unfortunately the fences were there for a reason,and people were crushed against them.

   Posted 7 months ago #
4. Surrounded By Zulus - Member

   It was 96 people that were killed at Hillsborough not 92. It's under the miscroscope because none of the police officers that were in charge have ever been held to account.

   Posted 7 months ago #
5. MSP - Member

   The police lied and blamed the fans.

   While the police didn't manage the situation well, they didn't cause the crush, they just got it wrong. But as is so often the case, they made a complete balls up of the aftermath when covering their own backs became more important to them than the truth.

   That said, I do think keeping documents on cases like this from the public is an abuse of the official secrets act, and certainly in my mind not what it is intended for.

   Posted 7 months ago #
6. iain1775 - Member

   so why is this all under the microscope again? what is been sought?

   
   Justice for the ninety SIX

   Posted 7 months ago #
7. surfer - Member

   The media (the Sun newspaper) made the most sickening unsubstantiated accusations against the fans including picking the pockets of the injured and urinating on the Police as they tried to help.
   None of it was true however it was apparently based on information provided by Yorkshire police and people who were not even at the ground! The publication of all the information will force the Sun to name its sources.

   Despite its attempts to apologize over the years a copy of the paper is difficult to buy in Liverpool (if you were so inclined)

   Posted 7 months ago #
8. surfer - Member

   While the police didn't manage the situation well, they didn't cause the crush

   The Taylor report disagrees with you!

   The official inquiry into the disaster, the Taylor Report, concluded that "the main reason for the disaster was the failure of police control

   Wikipedia

   Posted 7 months ago #
9. trailmonkey - Member

   Unfortunately the fences were there for a reason,and people were crushed against them.

   whilst the fences were there to contain the fans, it's wrong to say that people died by being crushed against them. the majority of fatalities actually occured in the tunnel that led to the terrace.

   i too was a regular match goer in those days, i didn't go to another game until well into the next season after hillsborough, i just couldn't face it. i couldn't help but feel that 'there but for the grace of god' because there were so many situations that i'd been in myself that easily could have turned into a hillsborough. there really was no idea on how to safely police football in those days, the consensus was that we were all animals and by and large that's exactly how we were treated. that mindset certainly contributed to the disaster and i'm sure it still exists today in the way that the families are left to grieve without closure.

   Posted 7 months ago #
10. cruzheckler - Member

    surfer the police did not cause the crush it was the presence of too many fans in too small a space. When you go into the leppings lane end you go throughj a tunnel this funnels you down the middle, if there were many behind you you would have to go forwards instead of to the sides of the emptier pens. But hey, why let the facts get in the way?

    The doors were opend to prevent fans being crushed against them on the outside, it a shit or bust tactic.

    My source, the mother of PC dukenfield - the policeman in charge! **** wikipedia - you blew your own creddibility out of the water using that as a credible source!!

    Oh and why were english clubs banned from Europe, Heysel, who were the poorly behaved fans there? Why were the fences up, because of Hooligans, anyone make a tenuous link here?

    Posted 7 months ago #
11. surfer - Member

    I used to watch Liverpool in the Kop many years before seating. You only ever got caught once on the wrong side of the steel barriers! A very frightening experience.

    Posted 7 months ago #
12. Surrounded By Zulus - Member

    cruzheckler - why weren't there police or stewards at the end of that tunnel directing people to the almost empty side pens? Maybe you could ask Mrs Dukenfield that one.

    Posted 7 months ago #
13. surfer - Member

    My source, the mother of PC dukenfield - the policeman in charge! **** wikipedia - you blew your own creddibility out of the water using that as a credible source!!

    The Taylor report concluded this. I think you would expect the Police officer in charge to say that, even if he didnt. I think his mum would stick up for him

    The doors were opend to prevent fans being crushed against them on the outside, it a shit or bust tactic.

    Brougt on by poor police control, outside and inside.

    Posted 7 months ago #
14. MoreCashThanDash - Member

    Playing devils advocate, just because someone failed to do their job properly and made an incorrect decision that resulted in a terrible tragedy does not mean that there needs to be a witch hunt/criminal enquiry/claim for compensation or whatever it is that people require.

    Any attempt to lie to cover up the facts was obviously wrong, what the Sun did was shocking, but my view is that there was a series of events compunded by errors of judgement by the Police that led to the tragedy.

    The fact that the enquiry said it was due to the Police - as above - was enough for me. The fact that the lessons learned from the tragedy ensured it has never happened again means that something good came out of the terrible loss.

    Posted 7 months ago #
15. cruzheckler - Member

    And too many fans coming in late due to traffic issues on the way over

    Posted 7 months ago #
16. trailmonkey - Member

    surfer the police did not cause the crush it was the presence of too many fans in too small a space

    isn't the whole point that it was the police who controlled the volume of fans entering at the same time ?

    a completely independent enquiry quite clearly found the policing to be at fault so i don't see why anyone is trying to deny it

    Posted 7 months ago #
17. TandemJeremy - Member

    The crush was the police fault - thats the Taylor report conclusion. Teh crush should and could have been managed. Other factors as well- but thats the main one.

    I have been in a crush at a couple of events - frightening

    Posted 7 months ago #
18. MSP - Member

    Brougt on by poor police control, outside and inside.

    Brought on by the police being unable to control the fans that had overwhelmed them.

    It was a terrible disaster, and the police tactics failed, but they can not be held responsible in the way many seem to want them to be.

    Posted 7 months ago #
19. surfer - Member

    Taylor seems to think they can. As above you are clearly privy to information he didn't have.

    Posted 7 months ago #
20. totalshell - Member

    yeh but maggie maggie maggie only spoke to douggie hurd the day after how can they be blamed?

    football fans were treated like animals for a reason, they often behaved like them , not all not always but most and often.

    groups i knew met at service stations and planned violence pre and post match, i was once on a coach in the northeast that had every window broken and all bar 4 had to have hospital treatment, i was dragged by 3 guys out of the gates at a merseyside ground and grew uncomfortablty familiar with the soles of thier boots.

    in the 1980's football was different from what ut is today and it took the tragic loss of life at sheffield and bradford to bring about change spearheaded by maggie maggie maggie

    Posted 7 months ago #
21. trailmonkey - Member

    Brought on by the police being unable to control the fans that had overwhelmed them.

    so, poor police control then. they knew how many tickets had been sold and how many fans were likely to attend.

    Posted 7 months ago #
22. crikey - Member

    Typical lowest common denominator STW debate...

    It was the police.

    It was the fans.

    It was the police.

    It was the fans...

    

    Posted 7 months ago #
23. trailmonkey - Member

    football fans were treated like animals for a reason, they often behaved like them , not all not always but most and often.

    hey, don't let your obvious prejudice get in the way of reasoned debate here.

    i regularly attended football matches in the period as did most of my family and many other families. i'm not, they're not and neither were the vast majority of people

    animals

    Posted 7 months ago #
24. cruzheckler - Member

    a lot were

    Posted 7 months ago #
25. trailmonkey - Member

    yeah ? well lots of people go to football matches and hooligans made up very small percentage, even at the height of the dark days.

    Posted 7 months ago #
26. JacksonPollock - Member

    hey, don't let your obviously ignorant, boorish prejudice get in the way of reasoned debate here.

    Exactly the sort of attitude displayed by the police. Not only did they mismanage the crowd, they were also complicit in hindering the medical services that could have saved lives. They effectively left the fans for dead...but thats alright as they were the same people that caused Heysel right?

    Posted 7 months ago #
27. surfer - Member

    a lot were

    Next time you are speaking to Duckenfields mum ask her how he is. He wasnt well enough to testify at the enquiry and retired on a full pension I understand. Not before admitting that he had lied about the gates being forced open by fans when they had really been opened on his orders.

    Posted 7 months ago #
28. TandemJeremy - Member

    #and were putting anyone who escaped the crush back over the fence into it again.

    Lot of mistakes made - as usual not one catastrophic mistake but a series of them

    Posted 7 months ago #
29. trailmonkey - Member

    you may have noticed that i've edited that comment jacksonpollock.

    on re-reading the post in question it's obvious that the poster's views were not based completely in ignorance as he'd quite obviously been to games himself so it was only fair that i withdrew that and to the poster, i apologise if you saw it.

    it stands though that through his experiences, his views are likely to be prejudiced.

    Posted 7 months ago #
30. cruzheckler - Member

    surfer - she is dead

    Posted 7 months ago #
31. project - Member

    I went for a job interview in liverpool town, at the time of the the funerals, got on the train, in a badly fitting suit, and shiny shoes, and an old biddy reached over to me and said was it somebody close whos funneral youre going to, ive seen so many young people dressed like you son lately going to funerals.

    Now after all this time it seems a bit pointless looking for elderley police officer to blame,lets just hope it doesnt happen again .

    Posted 7 months ago #
32. JacksonPollock - Member

    Its not about blaming anyone. Its about getting to the truth and the good people of Liverpool being acknowledged as exactly that; good people.

    It had a profound effect on society, all seater stadiums became the norm. The issue of euthanasia being brought to the fore (Anthony Bland).

    Posted 7 months ago #
33. millcar - Member

    Was in the other end. It was horrific.

    TBH I've aalways felt there was fault on both sides but the police had duty of care and failed. They never seemed to be held to account.

    I'd rather not go over it again but can see why some families seek answers. Cant imagine loosing my child in a similar incident.

    Not sure about debating it here so will leave you to it!!

    Posted 7 months ago #
34. antigee - Member

    why weren't there police or stewards at the end of that tunnel directing people to the almost empty side pens?

    believe that one of the issues identified in the official report was that some sections of the ground had no stewards available due to confusion over who should supply them and this seemed to form part of the picture that the police and the ground management didn't really have a good grasp of the potential for disaster - believe there is no such thing as a tragic accident - events that could have been predicted multiplied due to poor planning and poor decisions - having said that the need to blame individuals and have them "held to account" whatever that means serves no purpose other than to satisfy people's lynch mob mentality - i recall a police control operator was villified in the press for simply trying to ensure that ambulances and fire crews were being sent to the correct location a process that probably slowed response by less than half a minute
    Very sad and futile that lives were wasted and also sad that there is seem to be a need for secrecy that fuels pointless anger

    Posted 7 months ago #
35. surfer - Member

    I hope so to Project but the families of those who died deserve justice, however long it is delayed

    Posted 7 months ago #

RSS feed for this topic

Reply »

You must log in to post.