I had an offer I couldn’t turn down on an ‘as new’ Rega Elicit-R amp – have had it up and running since yesterday, and although I instantly noticed a more obvious soundstage and sharper timing, I’m slightly underwhelmed by a perceived lack of ‘oompff’

This was the amp that I promised I’d own one day, and I am accustomed to the Rega sound so felt fairly safe buying blind on the strength of its stellar reviews. I imagine I can probably tweak my set up somewhat to achieve more greatness, but thats where I need help. As things stand I’m starting to already consider a sub woofer in order to get the bass I feel I’m lacking.

My sources are Rega RP6 turntable, Marrantz PM66KI CDP, Neat Mystique speakers.
I came from a humble Cambridge Audio amp and prior to that 2x Marrantz PM63 KI amp which eventually gave up the ghost on me.
I always assumed the Neats would respond well to being driven harder and the output of 2x 100w on the Elicit naively made me think the sound would gain more urgency and all round power, whilst remaining focused across the range.
As things stand I’m feeling like I’ve gained maybe up to 10% across the board – which seems short change from a £1600 amp when coming from a bargain basement amp.

Don’t get me wrong, I do find myself thinking ‘ooh that sounds good’, but on louder/dancier/bass rich tracks I’m just not feeling it – I want a thump in my chest whilst my toes tap..

Am I expecting too much? Is there an easy fix? Will the amp open up with prolonged running in? Do I need a sub? (Or two). Keen to know your experiences

ouch, spent £1600 and even then can’t persuade yourself it is any good? can you take it back!?

want a thump in my chest whilst my toes tap..

Aren’t they small speakers? Are they difficult to drive?

Never read much into power output. It’s current delivery and control that matters.

I have. Cyrus Lyric driving Neat Elete speakers I had the same problem initially recon it took close to 100 hours to reach it full potential. I almost went down the Sub route but the wife wouldn’t play, as it turns out it wasn’t necessary just needed more running in.

http://www.audioreview.com/cat/speakers/floorstanding-speakers/neat-acoustics/mystique/prd_120255_1594crx.aspx

Soundstage is very big. in fact bigger than any flat earth speakers i heard before. tone is very balanced. not bright nor bassy but bass is ultra fast that if you’re used to boomy bass these babies may sound basslight to you.

That might be part of the perceived problem, is it possible to move the speakers closer to the back wall or side walls, to give a bit more emphasis to the bass?

Yes, positioning may help a lot.

Lol they are floorstanders…

Exits thread

ouch, spent £1600 and even then can’t persuade yourself it is any good? can you take it back!?

£1600 is new price, I paid a LOT less than that from an old rich fella who bought it and replaced it almost immediately when realising it had no tone controls..
It is good, very very good, I’m just trying to work out how good it should be. Currently too lean to consider it as amazing, but suspect running in – or lack of – to be part of the problem.

Aren’t they small speakers? Are they difficult to drive?

For floor standers, they are fairly diminutive. Did hear them connected to a juicy amp before I bought them though, and the bass had me grinning like a child, so far I’ve not been able to replicate that. I honestly don’t know if they are difficult to drive but I’d assumed that an Elicit could handle those duties?..

I had the same problem initially recon it took close to 100 hours to reach it full potential. I almost went down the Sub route but the wife wouldn’t play, as it turns out it wasn’t necessary just needed more running in.

Fingers crossed it comes to life then, will be great to hear it open up. Thanks

Move them back toward the rear wall is probably the only way to get “more” bass. Have a play with other positioning as Neats aren’t thumpers. An amp change won’t change the nature of your speakers and the results you’re getting are exactly what I’d expect.

Try some of this stuff it might help

http://www.audiophysic.de/aufstellung/index_e.html
Your speakers could be sitting in a null point and lacking bass because of that.

Otherwise you need bigger speakers with larger drivers as chest thump comes with shifting air – A lot of it.

Otherwise you need bigger speakers with larger drivers as chest thump comes with shifting air – A lot of it.

Not just this – needs to be fast so the amp needs current and control., and the speakers can’t be flabby.

what is the equipment sat on? The room and the stand is where I’d look. I’m sure I’m not hearing half of what my system could do with better acoustics.

I’ve heard my old system set up in a better situation than I ever had it (better shape room, solid floor) and it sounds like it’s been upgraded.

You could try some fatter gauge loudspeaker cable – although don’t spend too much on it.

The 4mm Van Damme stuff is cheap and apparently the same as that recommended by PMC.

Probably won’t make much odds but it did to my lowly Quad 306 I remember.

room positioning of both the speakers and your head will make a difference.

I thought you’d left Al? 😉

See, this is where I lose my mind with hi-fi. Change one component and a hundred voices tell you the fault lies in another component. Change that component..

What makes a flabby speaker?
Is my amp not capable of handling current and exuding control?

I’m matching my system based on recommended complimentary components. But of course one mans meat etc..

I want great bass, but I also want great control and separation. Discuss

Granted, it’s not set up on a great stand. It’s on a modular shelving system but isolated by granite plinths, and the CDP has those spongy feet that came highly recommended on an old hi-fi thread.
Turntable is isolated via dedicated wall bracket, living room floor is suspended with garage void underneath. Unfortunately.

Could it just be a more “accurate” sound whereas the old
Cambridge gave a slightly more enhanced, rich bass?

What’s the room like? Lots of furnishings, or lots of wood and glass?

Cambridge was bass light too, IMO. The old Marrantz was better in that respect but would lose composure when driven harder.
Room is approx 5m x 6m. Carpeted, curtains

As things stand I’m feeling like I’ve gained maybe up to 10% across the board – which seems short change from a £1600 amp when coming from a bargain basement amp.

Law of diminishing returns.

I want great bass, but I also want great control and separation. Discuss

Spend more.

Thanks for the input.
Relatively speaking this amp is several steps up the ladder, I’m sure it’s capable in the right hands

Can’t believe we’re 2 hours and 18 posts in and nobody has suggested Naim. Where are they?

Definitely worth playing with speaker positioning. You have quite a large room though so with a smaller floor stander (ported?) you might struggle regardless. When you liked the sound of the neats, was that in your room? And with what amp?

Yes they are ported. It was a smaller room and they were connected to a home made amp so no idea what was driving them exactly.. They kicked butt though, but yes I’m sure the room dims played a part

WHen I was at uni I went to a proper hifi shop with a mate – he wanted to buy a Linn so they (as was the sales pitch at the time) got us to listen to a set up worth thousands, using their special vinyl and then even deigned to play a few of our own records

They said a load of stuff about bass “accuracy”, “tautness” and other guff but even if the whole thing was better than I’d ever heard, when it came to it the word for the bass, I went for “gutless”

I’d have to agree that as far as I can work out, in audiophile terms bass is a bad word that needs to be controlled.

I prefer controlled BASS

want a thump in my chest whilst my toes tap.

Only way is to move air which means much bigger ‘speakers.

Your sources are fine, assuming a decent cartridge ( I spy an Exact) , amp is good, speakers excellent.

Interconnects?

I was astounded recently playing around with my interconnects. A pair of red leads by Chord that were included with my Audiolab pre and power amps that I thought were “cheap but OK” ended up really making a difference. Further investigation, they were £100+ interconnects a number of years ago.

A few returnable purchases later on Qed performance 40 (£40) and then Qed Reference 40 and Chord Cobra Vee3 interconnects at just under £100 a set I am convinced that a bit of experimentation in the interconnect department is absolutely necessary.

Qed performance didn’t perform compared to the 20 year old Chord Solid, (less detail, Woolier, less bass) The Qed reference 40 at £85 didn’t meet the explicit detail of the Chord Cobra Vee3 at £95, again nice to listen too, smooth but lacking in detail compared to the new chords.

Before I started this process a few weeks ago, I never realised how much an interconnect could alter the sounds I could hear.

I am lead to believe my amps are analytical? Speakers are designed for studio use (avi biggatron) and cd player is a smooth but detailed Bitstream rotel 965 Bx LE Discrete oldy that’s been re-clocked and us apparently a £1000 cd player killer, for system comparison, tt is an RP6 with Exact, rega fono phono amp.

My £50 upgrade from Qed micro speaker wire to Van Damme 2.5mm wire gave a worthwhile “thump” but the effect the interconnect swapping from source to pre amp,or pre amp to power amp makes a far bigger difference than I thought it could.

I’d try a few different interconnects, but only if you can buy a few at a time and return as necessary. I still can’t believe how much difference it’s made to me recently

flabby bass is where the amp can’t supply enough current to stop the speaker driver moving in one direction and cause it to come back in the other direction when it should

I remember hearing a big difference when I upgraded my interconnect and speaker cable from what was in the box type stuff to something decent, prompted by trying a mates expensive cable talk stuff.

The stuff I used wasn’t anywhere near the same cost, just decent, and I didn’t hear a difference unless I changed them both, almost like they were both part of a filtering chain.

I was/am a big sceptic so I was suitably surprised.

You’ve not gone out of phase somewhere have you when you connected the new amp? You say imaging has improved so it doesn’t sound as though you have mind you

Sell it all and buy a decent pair of active speakers?

Won’t someone think of the children / when will people learn etc

*minces off in a self righteous huff*

As things stand I’m feeling like I’ve gained maybe up to 10% across the board – which seems short change from a £1600 amp when coming from a bargain basement amp.

I came from a humble Rega Brio (£325 new and 35 w) to the Audiolab 8000s and 8000p pre and power setup (second hand but over £1k worth and 100w). It left me feeling that The sound had improved but how brilliant the Brio was. Shame I’d sold it.

Playing then with swapping from integrated with just the 8000s then adding the 8000p and switching to pre/power improved things but only marginally by tightening things up, more controlled sound. Small gains.

Reading this thread reminds me of the lunacy of the hi-fi industry. A much better solution would be to pair some speakers with excellent polar and transient response with a clean and powerful amp and an excellent EQ to correct the frequency response for the speakers in the room they’re in.

If you are into hi-fi I’d urge you to build some of these and take the leap into the 21st century which the industry is so keenly avoiding because it’ll destroy their business model of constantly mixing and matching items unscientifically for marginal gains but maximum spend:

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/LXmini/Introduction.htm

Yes, I feel that I’ve gained the tightening up, rythm is improved and detail is exceptionally clear. I guess my main grumble is the sense of a lack of power – whatever that means.
I think the short of it is that despite appreciating quality sound reproduction I’m probably spoilt by years of concerts/gigs/clubs/car stereo where you can really feel the air pressure changes and the deep bass notes – which according to most snobby audiophile descriptions is completely uncouth of me to desire.

Now I don’t expect an 1000 giga watt concert in my living room, but at the moment I’m missing the low rumbly bass notes that I’ve heard much more humble systems at least attempt to reproduce in the past.
For example, playing Prodigy’s Poision (a system tester for me) – I can barely detect the opening sub bass line, in as much as I can hear it, but there’s no gusto behind it. Cypress Hill Black Sunday on vinyl I was expecting big things – but again, very modest bass at the lower end – backed up by Mrs Slim who far from usually being bothered by stereo set up expressed herself that the bass seemed flat.
Kate Bush Hounds of Love, James Gold Mother – exceptional clarity and stereo imaging, but instead of worrying about it being too loud I’m left wanting to turn up the volume in order to feel the complete package

I would advise playing with speaker positioning.

Did you happen to move the speakers and/or your listening position when swapping the amps?

Google Fletcher-Munson. Read about it thoroughly. Then accept that the fear of EQ in hi-fi systems is ludicrous.

Your speakers probably aren’t in the best positions in your room. But if you want a hi-fi system to feel like a gig you basically need to crank up the bass knob. Sorry.

The Linkwitzlab recommendation is a good one and those minis look very good.

But if you are sticking with what you have then try some EQ as the guru recommended – the Behringer DEQ2496 Ultra Curve is one of the cheapest options :

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Behringer-DEQ2496-Ultra-Curve-Processor/dp/B000CCN152

or there are options that use a PC but you will need a decent soundcard.

otherwise you might have to get a sub, but it will probably need to be a decently sized one to give you the kick you want to mimic a concert hall.

Read this OP or is this you?

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=183021&highlight=elicit

Have you played some music that you expect to give you the sound your looking for and then walked round the room to feel where the bass is strongest / best?

This will give an indication of cancelation in your room and might suggest what you need to do.

Room Eq and a half decent microphone with calibration software could be worth a play too.

Years of playing and others with much better and ludicrously expensive kit than I suggest that cables are a nonsense. As long as terminations and gauge is correct then they are just a placebo.

I’d look to more physical aspects before playing with bits of wire.

As long as terminations and gauge is correct then they are just a placebo.

I think at the gross level then gauge and structure (single-core/stranded) can make a difference, particularly with solid-state amps. But once you have the correct gauge and structure then paying more shouldn’t make any difference. I have certainly had differences with my Quad amps and different speakers/crossover setups.

I have built runs of fat mains cable expecting it to make no difference and then been disappointed when it has.

If you could measure the magnitude and phase of the response of each speaker at the listening positions and then use EQ and all-pass filters to flatten the magnitude and get the phases to match each other as best as possible over these positions, you’d transform the sound. And then come up with a selection of presets to compensate for your ears at the actual listening level vs the live experience.

Having had no system at home for a year due to space issues (we have studio monitors on the wall at work so plenty of listening happens there) I’ve just fitted some 4.5″ balanced mode radiators into the carcass of a 1960s radiogram with a Sonos Connect:Amp hidden in there. At the moment just simple open baffles but I’m going to build some transmission lines to give them an easier time producing the lows (lots of EQ being used at the moment but Xmax of these little things is an impressive 7mm!)

You could just buy a large cardboard box, place it near your seating position, and kick it in time with the music. The size of the box can be chosen according to which notes you want emphasized.

I understand your frustration. I have been looking at upgrading my 25 year old system, Audiolab 8000a, B&W P4 (small ported floorstanders), REL strata iii, Mdac,Squeezebox but have come away pretty underwhelmed. I need the sub in my room for the very lowest rumbles but my speakers were much better in the bass in the demo room when I took them for comparison.I have come to the conclusion that a LOT of cash needs to be spent for a tangible improvement and even then the room is the biggest variable.incidentally, the biggest improvement I heard was by hooking up a Naim Nait2 into the system, much more clarity and instrument definition in the top end. Next step is to listen to some Harbeth P3esr’s