Right – this is the third istallment of the 'newbie' question from the re-born biker…

The last time I rode, I used SPD's with eggbeaters and Spesh BG shoes. When I began having major issues with my knees, I ran flats instead.

My main problem (I think) is that I have avr size 11 feet and am very slight duck-footed (splayed) which meant that to stop my heels clipping the cranks, I had to tweak the cleats to twist my feet slightly straight. This may have caused my chronic tendonitis in my knees.

So, here is my quandry – Do I run flats on my Titus Super Moto or SPD's?

And, if SPD's – I am thinking of mallet style pedals with a wide cage.

Further, if I do run SPD's again, would the panel suggest high cut shoes for more support around the ankle?

Suggestions, advice or general vitriol and pelting by rotten tomatoes all welcome.

Thank you kindly

Benjamin

Cages on SPD pedals are a pain.

Time have a lot more float, and I'd try a set of those to see if you get on with them. That said, I like flats. I don't think there's much difference in power transfer, and I can jump off the bike far quicker if I have to.

Edit: Thought you meant Shimano SPDs. I suspect Times and Egg Beaters aren't that different.

I was always taught/told that one should use SPD's as they help you pedal better i.e. you could pull up one one leg as you push down on the other.

Is this true (I did add a dash of salt to this when I heard it)

I did like using SPDs as I could hop over things quickly and easily.

Perhaps I should simply learn how to do so on flats 😕

The Shimano DX shoes seem very popular as an all round SPD shoe……..

Thanks

B

My mate has this problem acutely – walks like a penguin – and welded himself some super-wide cages and toe clips (touring bike use only).

If you have splayed feet then go for big flats and some sticky shoes. You'll get used to it quite fast.

You had knee trouble with clipless?
You didn't have knee trouble with flats?
You have to ask?
A pair of 5:10s and some Azonic A-Frames (currently only £32 at CRC) will see you right.

A clipless pedal will be/ should be more efficient than a flat if that is important to you.

I am from a road background and went straight to clipless (crank bros) when moving to off road. I have got a set of flats and some five-ten shoes for pratting around but my old knee problems are much worse with these than with a clipless setup. I think this is because the five-tens so agressivly stick themselves to the pedals there is no float at all in the system.

Re clipping your chain stays, it might be you or it might be you were using a shoe with a large heel box or a frame which stayed flared further towards the bottom bracket than some others. I've got bigger feet than you and some bikes have a tendancy to catch more than others. Cleat setup is absolutely crucial however (both to power and comfort) and if you are having knee problems and can't get it right on your own, some of the shops with bike fitting services will also have a cleat setup service. When I started using Lemond le wedges under my cleats a lot of my issues went and my power figures went up without a change in fitness.

Assassin – I had problems with both flats and SPD's though I wondered if my problem was at such a developed stage that the flats made little difference!

Three sets of cortisone injections in each knee and a full on slice-n-dice on the right and I eventually got rid of bike yet, 6yrs later, and I have decided I would rather die of bad knees than a serious spare tyre around the waist!

Convert – yes, perhaps it will be worth the money to have a proper shop check me out and assist in the set up.

I have never come across a fitting service specific shop though I trust the LBS down the road could help as it is owned and managed by an ex champion roadie and if he doesnt know about cleat fitting then I may as well just give up!

Thank you all for you advice so far……….

regards

Benjamin

ride with flats….

easier on the knees and i really don't think that uphill performance is adversely affected when using flats as opposed to SPDs.

i rode several transalps this summer and always on flats. i never felt that my performance uphill would have been improved if using SPDs.

the benefit of flats downhill is a given.

plus more foot positions eliminating numb feet brought on by the pressure point created by SPDs.

i was using Wellgo MG1s up until a few weeks ago. now bought a set of these in white:

100x94x14mm

very thin and a massive platform. when i stick my size 9 shoe centrally over the pedal it extends 1/4" past the side of my shoe.

good pin placement, too. very grippy.

All this stuff about "clipless pedals cause knee problems" is one of those cycling myths, it's based on 1990's info when clipless pedals had bugger all float.

Well set up clipless pedals are more efficient cos you can put the power down over a much wider pedalling arc. It could be argued that, using flat pedals, you're forever trying to move your foot to the correct point so the knee actually gets more stress as it's constantly making micro adjustments. You're also putting the power down through a much smaller arc so more short sharp pressures on the knee.

There's all sorts of wedges and fitments you can add to shoes to position the foot correctly, it's worth getting some proper advice from a good shop.

There are systems that let you extend pedals out to so your heels don't foul the cranks

http://www.highpath.net/index.html

but looks like they are currently un available, I think you can get them from America

If you heels are fouling something else (chain stays) buy a bike thats narrower at that point. I mean you sufffered alot last time. If you've got to go hard tail to let your legs take up the correct position then I think you have to just run with it

I've battled through a few soft tissue problems. I gave up flats due to arch pain and slight knee problems. I needed rigid shoes with a proper heel box to keep everything in the correct place. I'm so worried about getting the cleats set up correctly without getting it wrong and brininging back knee pain that I'm currently using toe straps

I feel like an idiot in the car park. But once I'm riding I forget about that and enjoy the pain free ride. I've promised to try spds buy half term

I think spds well set up give lower forces in the knee. i don't think we pull up with the rising foot (except in sprints). But we can do a better job of unwaiting the rising foot as we know it can't slip.

I think you should try for a proper bike fit as some people have found tilting wedges help. (I also use orthotics and I think they help as well)

Maybe try these people for help

http://www.cyclefit.co.uk/lemond.html

Try both properly and go with whichever one feels best to you. Each has advantages and disadvantages, don't let anyone tell you one is outright "better" because none of the advantages of either are so great that it outweighs personal preference.

Prepare yourself for an enormous amount of s***e to be spouted on the subject Most people will recommend what they use and defend it to the last, despite having never given the alternative a serious try. Many people will "try" the alternative, for 1 or 2 rides then declare it to be horrible, because you need to learn new techniques and it can show up weaknesses in your riding, and nobody likes to relearn something they're already good at. But a lot of people aren't happy with this, their favourite has to be "best", it's not enough that it's their favourite for perfectly good reasons.

I'm one of the few that's seriously used both, though my SPD experience is pretty old now and the new pedals are probably better. Absolutely hated learning to ride on flats but I didn't have any choice. Now, I reckon that I could be perfectly happy on either, I feel a little more happy on flats but if I could use SPDs again, maybe I would. It'd be good to be able to stay ambidextrous as it were.

The one slightly partisan thing I'll say is that people talk about efficiency… But an awful lot of the who say "Use SPDs, they're more efficient" will be doing something else spectacularily inefficient, like riding around with a knackered BB or chain, or with the seat at the wrong height, or with a generally misfit bike, or with twice as much travel as they ever need, or huge fat tyres that waste a thousand times as much energy as they believe SPDs save them… Or just by their riding style. Not eating pies is more efficient than using SPDs but it's easier to clip in than it is to stop eating pies, so huge pietasters will still insist that their SPDs are essential because they're such efficient biking machines.

Equally, I once saw a mate of mine crash, and make a miraculous foot-down save that stopped him following the bike off the edge of the trail. Another mate said "Bet you're glad you wear flats". He doesn't, he was clipped in, he just unclipped pretty damn fast because he's not a noob. The other mate is one of those people who believes only flat users can get their feet down fast. He still is!

It's all a load of bobbins. Try, test, use.

Surely if your feet splay outwards with SPD's, they're going to splay out even more with flats. There's a hell of a lot more float in flats than there is in clipless.

To avoid upsetting Northwind and his dogged determination to render everyone elses experiences invalid, IN MY EXPERIENCE, flats caused me a lot more problems than SPD's because they allowed my feet to splay out more. I did a few endurance races on flats (because I was riding on flats all the time at that point as part of my plan to become the oldest dirt jumper on earth), and my left knee was seriously screwed after each one. It was only when a sports physio came out riding with me that he noticed how far my feet were splaying. He recommended going to back to SPD's to restrict movement and make an effort to keep my feet straight. That's worked for me so far.

samuri – Member

"To avoid upsetting Northwind and his dogged determination to render everyone elses experiences invalid, IN MY EXPERIENCE, flats caused me a lot more problems than SPD's because they allowed my feet to splay out more."

Er… What I'm saying is that everyone should use what works for them, regardless of what pish is talked on the subject, obviously for you SPDs are right and you've made the informed, correct choice for you. Teh Internetz would probably tell you that flats are the only option for you because you have knee problems. So, you've already done exactly what I'm recommending…

If you want to run egg beater type pedals and suffer with your knees because of pronation in your stroke, one of the best cures is to narrow the Q factor of your crank.
i.e. use a dual ring setup like that found on a road bike. The new 10sp XTR and SRAM XX use this feature, and it'll help you to naturally square up your feet without putting pressure on your knees.
e.g. if you stand with your feet closer together, your toes don't slpay out as far in relation to your heels. But if you widen your stance, you'll naturally turn your feet out for stability.
That's the theory anyway, but it seems to be backed up by scientific tests.

You can also get shoes with orthotic insoles built in to correct the overpronation without damaging other tissue.
Adidas have a program for Mavic shoes that provide this service, and 2 Pure distribute an orthotic insole with a bespoke fitting program designed to correct this sort of issue.

You could always just use flat pedals and place your instep over the axle as opposed to placing the ball of your foot over it.
When your heels are further forward, they are also further outboard and not contacting the frame as you pedal.
This may require repositioning of the saddle to get you in a comfortable pedalling position.
I ride exclusively on flats because I have back problems and I need to reposition my feet and slide forward on the saddle to releive my back pain.
It works for me, but everyone's different.

I thought Nothwind made lots of sense. I see thousands of riders every year through the trail centre, and I don't give a shit what pedals they use or recommend. I know what's best for me.
I too have used both types of pedal, but I'm more comfortable with flats.
I don't dislike SPD's or suffer the usual "SPD moments" at low speed.
I just feel more comfortable on flats because they suit my medical needs better.
There is no "1 solution for all riders" just use what you feel comfortable with.
And just "go ride" and have fun.

"There are systems that let you extend pedals out to so your heels don't foul the cranks"
At least specialized do some pedal axle extenders if thats something you want to try

Thank you one and all – there is a lot to digest and consider here with some new terminology to get to grips with(pronation!??)

Mind you, I do like the attitude of a few about just getting out and riding!

THank you all once again

Ben