So I decided to go out on the commuter and do 10 miles just to watch my average speed/cadence/heart rate and set some targets. MHR ~195, RHR 50. Local route is a good mix and easily loopable. So out doing it at the speed I normally commute at I average 162 bpm, max at 185 (never felt particularly in pain), averaged 14.8mph with a decent headwind. I get back and look at my times “in zone” and I spent 3 minutes in the 60-70% zone I had been aiming for and the other 30 minutes at 80%, on average.

So considering I’m trying to lean up a little (OK, a lot) I was hoping to sit in the “fat burning” zone of 60-70%. Do you burn less fat when in the 80% than 70%, or is it just a lower % of calories burned is fat, but still more overall.

You burn less fat in the 80% zone. Slowing down is the answer. Its counter intuitive, but the ride will take longer, you will use more calories, and more of them will be from metabolised fat.

Thanks geoff – looks like I’ll just have to pootle along instead. I just always get the urge to go fast when on the road bike, but I’ve got 2 stone to shift so I want to be as efficient at doing that as possible!

There is also the argument that your metabolism is higher after more intense rides so you burn more energy.

or, go hard and raise your metabolism for a longer time after the ride, burning fat long after you stop excerising (your muscles tingle and are buzzing)

And this is quite good for a bit more background / motivation / ideas

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Heart-Rate-Monitor-Book-Cyclists/dp/1931382042

There is also the argument that your metabolism is higher after more intense rides so you burn more energy.

Your metabolism may be higher, but unless you are working the muscles you are not using that energy and it will ultimately be converted back into fat.

I spent the best part of a year riding 34 miles a day, 2*17, 3-4 days a week at 80-90% average, didn’t lose a drop of fat and ended up craving sugars. Makes me wonder if the reason was that I was working too hard. After I stopped doing that I dropped about half a stone and then added on a stone while not exercising. I’ve now levelled out at that point again 🙁

Have you considered the brain blasting possibility that you may simply be eating too much / stuffing too much beer down your face? If you eat more than you burn, it doesn’t matter how much you do, you still won’t lose weight. And where on earth are you getting your zones from? Are they based on a measured maximum etc or some half-arsed, general equation?

I can’t help feeling ‘fat burning zone’ is just more pointless guff. From what I’ve read, demanding exercise mobilises fat metabolism – that’s what fat is FOR, but there’s a limit to the rate the body can convert the fat. As I pointed out yesterday, it’s hugely easier NOT to eat food than it is to burn off the calories in it 🙁

“didn’t lose a drop of fat and ended up craving sugars.”

bad diet not having enough clean calories is all that is ! leaves you energy deficent and craving quick calories …ie sugar

clean calories

a glorious concept – feel guilty about food why don’t you ?

I always scoff full fat high sugar stuff which tastes great – we’re omnivores for goodness sake – it really doesn’t matter what you eat so long as it’s not too much and reasonable variety :o)

it’s hugely easier NOT to eat food than it is to burn off the calories in it

I have to disagree on that one – if I dont eat regularly and a reasonable amount of carbs I get headaches, lack of concentration, lethargy etc! Being more likely to burn fat at lower heart rates makes sense to me – your body is using its long-term stores as it doesnt need to get fast access, under heavy exercise you need rapid access to easily burned fuel. I’m no biologist though!

Not sure the bad diet is accurate, I eat a good mix of slow and fast burning carbs, variety of meats, plenty of different veg. If I eat brekky I have a migrane and feel sick by 11 if i dont continue snacking, by 4 I’m totally out of energy.

The only guaranteed way to lose weight is by drinking pond water.
The confusion around training regimes is due to the fact that we all have different metabolisms and will power.
If there was a simple rule to follow in this area then it would put the diet industry out of business.
Ride your bike for as much as you want, for as long as you want,as hard as you want, enjoy it, if you you drop a few pounds it’s a bonus, if not you’ve had a good ride!

I have to disagree on that one – if I dont eat regularly and a reasonable amount of carbs I get headaches

well, obviously, me too – but if you insist on eating more than you need it’s damn hard to burn it away through exercise

under heavy exercise you need rapid access to easily burned fuel.

so more pathways are exploited, not less!

i guess it depends on how badly you want to achieve the goals you have set ….

i achieved mine last year. I dont feel guilty about food when i deserve it but i dont go shoveling high fat processed crap down my throat just cause im hungry. I actually prefer eating fruit to chocolate. would much rather have a nice home made meal than a pizza.

Cant beat a nice chippy now and again mid 12 hour ride though.

so more pathways are exploited, not less!

Possibly, or possibly one system gives way to another as they cannot function mutually?

I have no idea, but the science of fitness is a multi billion pound industry, I would think that if a different explanation had been found, than the well known, we would know about it by now. I mean I know christ-knows how many athletes use these rules for improvement. Once you’re down to a decent lean meat status you never really need to drop down to the “fat burning” world again so I presume elities never drop down to requiring that for anything more than recovery?

i guess it depends on how badly you want to achieve the goals you have set ….

I’ve grown out of goals – I just want to have fun :o)

this guy wants to loose weight

sfb – its not all about you 😉

I’ve grown out of goals – I just want to have fun :o)

You dont grow out of goals, just change them (or can’t achieve them and give up)

t_r – I’m up for the goal seeking, my problem is that i cant do halfway houses – if I miss a day a week I’ll just stop entirely. Unfortunately I’ve had such an unstable time the last 12 months that I’ve not been doing anything lol.

this guy wants to loose weight

yes I know, which is why I said eating less is way easier than exercising. By all means have fun on your bike but it’s hardly a magic fat busting silver bullet

You dont grow out of goals

I have no goals, I just do stuff I like, unless that’s a goal?

i find the key with goals is …write them down , put it on the wall where you will see it every day , tell someone. Tell your self one day is not the end of the world. Hell im on the back of what is now 8 weeks off the bike(illness and then injury) and i still view my 09 goals as achievable.

also Write down what you want to do each day/week/month (how ever you want to do it….if you dont do it its alot harder to go and open up your excel spread sheet and delete what you DIDNT do than it is do open it up and write did that you actually did more.

I have no idea, but the science of fitness is a multi billion pound industry, I would think that if a different explanation had been found, than the well known, we would know about it by now. I mean I know christ-knows how many athletes use these rules for improvement. Once you’re down to a decent lean meat status you never really need to drop down to the “fat burning” world again so I presume elities never drop down to requiring that for anything more than recovery?

You’re having a laugh right? The whole sports research world is a comedy jungle of somewhat dubious studies that all contradict each other. Why not just accept the simple equation that if you burn more than you eat, you lose weight. If you eat more than you burn you gain. If the two are equal, you maintain weight.

Elite athletes train purely for performance, not to burn fat, that’s about nutrition. Lance Armstrong was notorious for calculating his calorific intake exactly during the race season so that it matched his output and he maintained racing weight.

If you’re in a endless glycogen crash cycle, maybe you need to look at the GI index of what you’re eating and how often you’re getting food in.

Oh, and fitness is a multi-billion pound industry all right. The emphasis is on industry there…

my favorite example of industry being lucozades ” by drinking this you are going to be xx% more hydrated than if using water”

read the small print on the back “Studys have shown that if you like the taste of what your drinking you are more likely to drink it and thus by drinking this you will like the taste of it better than water , will drink more and thus be xx% more hydrated”

Why not just accept the simple equation that if you burn more than you eat, you lose weight. If you eat more than you burn you gain. If the two are equal, you maintain weight.

I attempted that – I spent an entire 6 weeks eating exactly the same thing every day, a specifically calorie counted meal/meals that came to ~1250 calories yet contained plenty of veg, fruit and protein. I lost nothing and became a mess with headaches. While I have always been of the firm belief that if out > in you lose weight, I couldnt explain this one and it pulled apart my belief of this equation!

Incidentally I’m not an easily lead child trying to find an easy answer guys, I do have a little common sense 😉 I have been trying to stick to low GI foods but its not always easy to eat regularly thru the day at work!

You burn less fat in the 80% zone

That’s not true as I understand it. You can only burn up so much fat, due to the amount of oxygen your muscles are getting (and how much slow twitch muscle you have). So if you ride harder than that threshold you’ll start to burn more carbs, but still a similar amount of fat. So you’ll burn more calories at a higher intensity, and a higher percentage of those will be carbs, but the fat amount won’t change too much. That’s why you have to ride a lot longer at a slower pace to get the fat burning.

If you burn lots of carbs you’ll get really hungry and pig out, possibly negating any weight loss. Also if you ride hard you can’t ride for as long, which means less fat will get burned over all compared with riding further slower.

Eating fewer calories than you expend will work, yes – but making sure you understand exactly how your body’s dealing with the riding you are doing can make it a hell of a lot easier and more effective.

if I dont eat regularly and a reasonable amount of carbs I get headaches, lack of concentration, lethargy etc!

The feeling crud is not having enough carbs available. I used to get that. The thing was, I was all fast-twitch muscle fibre since all I did was hammer about on the bike, which meant I was always burning and eating carbs. Doing lots of base training (long slow rides) meant I developed more slow twitch muscle tissue and got better at metablolising fat so I could regulate my eating better and feel better doing it.

~1250 calories

That is WAY WAY too little! No wonder you felt like crap. You shoudl be aiming to lose 1-2lbs a week. That means you should be 500-1000 calories down per day. If you’re biking a lot, you could be burning up say 3500 calories a day (depends on your metabolism tho) and then you should eat 2500-3000 per day, mostly carbs. That’s a load easier than 1250! That little would really screw you about. You’d end up metabolising your own muscle tissue which is really bad for you and does nothing for your biking.

but making sure you understand exactly how your body’s dealing with the riding

sounds complicated. The beauty of these systems is that they were designed for mindless animals and require no mental input

You’d end up metabolising your own muscle tissue

I wonder if this is true. When I chose to I can lose 1/2lb a day by eating less and if anything I get faster.

molgrips – that does seem like a good explanation of my general situation, and explains the problems I’m seeing. I’ve always been a fast twitch person – never could do long distance anything but I could out-sprint most people, recover quickly and sprint again until I run out of carbs and then I get muscle aches and really feel like my body has crashed out. Problem was that I never seemed to gain any endurance ability, but these days I have 1/4 of what I used to have in both senses due to lack of activity.

EDIT – the 1250 was when I was not exercising at all, sedentary office work and sleeping lots.

The beauty of these systems is that they were designed for mindless animals and require no mental input

They were designed when food was quite a bit less refined, harder to get hold of (requiring serious energy output too) and when we didnt have lunch breaks and tea time 🙂

Don’t proffess to be an expert, but as far as I’m concerned, the faster you go the more calories you burn. There’s a site somewhere, where you can but in your distance and speed, and it’ll tell you calories burnt. It’s more the faster you go by far. There’s no fatties on the Tour de France.

When I cycle down the gym on a killer setting(for me) – peaks and troughs, power wattage is 207 troughs, and 316 peaks, my max heartrate I’ve seen is 162 – the machine is telling me high heart rate from 159 though(probably my age, which is input). On a 30 min ride, the peaks are 2.5 mins which is enough, so if I want to do longer I’ll do a 30 +10, or +20.

Oh yeah, we sometimes do a 21 mile road route on our MTBs, at around 18mph. I calculated from the mentioned site, that that was around 1000 calorie ride. As 3500 calories = 1lb in fat, you should lose 1lb every 3.5 days – eating your recomended daily intake.

I think it is a straight calorie burn rate vs effort and therefore fat burn rate?

From experience I know it is hard to follow heart rate bands when on a practical road or trail. I have tried to follow two or three different training regimes in the past with very specific HR zones and it is a nightmare.

My advice would be to look for every opportunity to ride (shops, work commute, local trips) and watch your fat food intake such as biscuits, sweets, cakes, etc.

I have been fighting my weight for 10 years now (I am 44) and I lost nearly a stone when I was in training for a big challenge ride in China but put it nearly all on through Christmas and this winter! Biggest failing I think is having things like donuts, cakes etc which I cannot resist. Some of us only have to look at a donut and we put on pounds!