Not really interested in getting into this discussion but as a point of information Dr Dolittle you might want to check the meaning of neo-liberal.

fwiw doc i totally agree with you on the vocational training issue and that it is something successive governments have done and will(whoever gets in) continue to completely neglect.

I'd love to see an immigration policy for the UK similar to that of Australia …
of that of I have no doubt dr

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3023107.stm

Charming Kimbers. You lose an argument and think no one will notice the conflation of immigration with refugee? Even the average STWer isn't that stupid.

And Nico, I'm well aware of what a Neo Liberal is. I wouldn't have used the term otherwise.

i thought youd like that

and funnily enough i dont see that ive lost, but then neither do you

i thought youd like that

and funnily enough i dont see that ive lost, but then neither do you

Yes, I know I've been wasting my time.

if a house in this country costs £150,000 you need the average person earning enough to be able to afford this. If you have a group coming to this country with the sole reason purpose of living as cheaply as possible whilst saving they will not have the same overheads as someone trying to buy a house and raise a family.

Depress wages the population can't afford housing people start to bitch etc.

It is arguable that wages are to high or to low with knock on consequences to prices cost of servies etc. What is less arguable is that the cost of housing in the UK is too high. And before anyone trots out the argument of supply and demand forcing prices up. Yes, but the supply issue is down to government policy restricting the supply of land. There is not an absolute shortage of land yet.

Right I have not read all of Drdo comment as it is quite early in the morning to get some high blood pressure.

I'd like to had some comment about your view on the EU. The shear principle of the EU is not allowing private companies to run train/gas/electricity. It is to provide for people (and sadly goods) to travel from one country to the other in complete freedom (that mean that I should not have to show 15 times my passport in heathrow). See it means I can come and vist WCA peterpoddy, TJ, al foxychick etc etc without having to go the the british consul and apply for a visa, thus allowing me to randomly decide to spend a week end in Scotland. IT also allow people that are willing to work hard to move around and to earn some money to be able to support their families. Do you think there is too much foreign working in UK? Well too bad. If they manage to find jobs it means one thing, they was jobs available.
Now about that:

and bar putting pressure on housing in the area they relocate

too be honest that is quite alot. Standard price of household in France where brits have moved in has increase dramatically. So key workers or normal people are not able to afford to buy flats anymore. What do you reply of that.

The Observer is really getting on my tats now. Front page leading article in the Review section this week slyly promoted a Poker playing website. Not once but bloody constant sly references.

I wouldnt knock the Mail when you have the comic's Mirror and Sun.

I am aware however of the negative effect of the open border EU immigration policy and what it has resulted in for many people in this country.

I concur, well actually not. What I do not like in the EU "open market" is that the perfectly good working structures of public services are being dismantled to the profit of private companies, bringing down the service and increasing the cost for the consumers.

As for people comming to the Uk to work and therefore bringing down the cost of the trade. I suggest you do something. Sit at the end off one of this shinny building around liverpool street station. Now ask someone with a nice tie and suit if he'd like to have a job where he can earn around 4000£ a week. Now tell him the job is manual (plumber, builder) etc etc and see him run away.

"Rich" EU countries can only benefit from EU open borders in terms of workforce. See thousands of polish people (IIRC correctly pols is actually quite a insulting term) come to France to fix people boiler and sink. I say they should bugger of, afterall they are stealing the jobs of ours spanish immigrant ;-).

£4000 a week plumbing?

Yes please, how do i sign up?

I dont think so! These jobs are purely made up by papers to get people irate about what others (dont actually) earn.

Incidentally, if britain werent that rich compared to other countries, this situation would be reversed. It will be interesting to see the attitude of some of our EU brothers and sisters when jobs are being offered to british people in sufficient numbers to impact wages.

oups I mean month rather than week sorry 😉

anyone who is interested in free migration, I have a mate who does work for a charity that you will find interesting (those who disagree will find it even more so)

Home

Interesting bunch of nice people but far to easy to wind up after a few drinks.

I think Dr Dolittle is largely correct. But I have the luxury of working in a regulated profession that it is difficult to break into coming from elsewhere in Europe (it is also difficult for me to move) and I therefore enjoy the luxury of cheaper plumbers and a top-notch lemon juicer.

If you have a trade from which you've always earned a decent enough wage, and you live in one of the countries of the EU where practising that trade gives you a higher standard of living than it can in other countries, you gain absolutely nothing from free movement of labour. The advantages of being able to go to work as a plumber in Poland are non-existent (unless you particularly fancy going to Poland). For the Polish plumber, the advantages of being able to go to France, Germany or the UK are enormous.

I get cheaper plumbing and don't have to compete significantly with Polish lawyers. British plumbers just get less money. The only advantage is a supposed medium term increase in everyone's wealth and opportunity. But this may be illusory, and it is entirely understandable for the casualties of it to wonder who did this to them, and why. 😐

Lardy are you a plumber?
Is £50K odd P/A reasonable? £40K?, £30K?

BD

A cracking post. This pretty much sums up the problem and why there will never be agreemant on what is right.

The strongest proponent who i talk to is the one with the most restrictive barriers to entry to his proffession and whilst he is anaimated with regard to free movement of people he gets a little more reserved when challenged on the question "what if foreign quals and bodies were recognised to do your work?"

On the cotrary the biggest supporters of limiting migration are those who have few barriers to entry. That said, if your having a foreign plumber do gas work. Make sure they are CORGI because there arent to many around.

Nope not a plumber. But work with a lot.

Question you have to ask.

Are you self employed? Corgi? Doing domestic work? if yes to these then £60k would not be unreasonable (prob more per annum). But then you are your own company and have to do all the assoc work plus find your jobs etc..

Working for someone else (paye)on domestic work? a LOT less!

Working for someone else (PAYE)on comercial (site) work? Even less.

ts the last one there where Ive found most of the non british labour. Take any trade and apply the same principal and those at the bottom will have found the amount they earn drop over recent years.

So anyone fancy answering backhanders question of how much is reasonable for your average plumber to earn?

Edit: too late!

60k is plenty of money for anyone to be earning – so people now have to work for say, 20-30k a year? The tears are literally rolling down my face.

grumm, I completely agree.
£60K is a lot of money for a plumber to earn, self employed or not.
I'd suggest that $40K is plenty for any self employed trade (gas fitter),
£30K for more traditional plumber types. I've been on site with Polish workers and have no issue with them at all. They're polite, hardworking and also have good standards although I'd not agree to say they're better or worse than Brits as that would be racism. It's the other side of immigration that I have issue with.

Grumm

Why the judgement about what is a reasonable amount of money to earn?

I have mates who own shops and earn multiples of 60k when all they do (at a basic level)is buy something and sell it on? Is this overpayed?

As well as the skill these people are being paid for enterprise and the risk of self employment.

My veiw for the record is that managed migration is good. We should invite people from all over the world to come along with the skills that WE NEED. If you dont have the relevant skills then no entry.

Why the judgement about what is a reasonable amount of money to earn?

Well the argument against immigration from people like DrDolittle seems to be that it's somehow unfair that tradesmens' wages are being suppressed by cheap foreign labour. I am suggesting that in many cases the wages may have been artifically high, and that the cheap foreign labour is simply restoring some equilibrium to the market.

I am suggesting that in many cases the wages may have been artifically high

I believe that on average, wages, as percentage of GDP, have reduced by about 25% in the last 30 years. This is one of the most important reasons for the huge growth in recent decades of credit dependency. And goes to the very heart of why Britain was so affected by the 'credit crunch'.

Credit controls were lifted 30 years ago and credit became very easily available, precisely because Britain moved into a low-wage economy. The government slogan 30 years ago was, 'we have been paying ourselves too much for doing too little'.

.

We should invite people from all over the world to come along with the skills that WE NEED.

Do you think that it is morally justifiable to poach skilled health workers from poor third world countries ?

I believe that on average, wages, as percentage of GDP, have reduced by about 25% in the last 30 years.

Any basis for that? I 'believe' that on average people are wealthier now than ever before.

We should invite people from all over the world to come along with the skills that WE NEED.

I did not knew you were posting on this forum Mr President I do apologies for any inconvenience I may have caused you 😉
EDIT d'ooh once again my favourite poster beat me to that.

Poaching 3rd world workers is a good point, however there is an argument that the financial good that comes through money sent back via the foreign working diaspora outweighs this. However, no, I dont think its morally justifiable so I will add on "and is morally justifiable" to my comment earlier.

It's quite trickty to find a good graph of wages as a share of GDP over time. I am quite convinced that ernie is correct, as he generally is.

This PWC report is fairly clear.

Ernie, should that not be the choice of the individual?
On the topic of the thread title, I dislike the mail the exact same amount that I dislike the guardian. My question is; is there an absolutely neutral newspaper? I do not want to read opinions or be told what my thoughts should be. I want to read factual news and make my own mind up. Suggestions welcome!

Try the sport?

There is no news in it and so it cant be biased either way.

Its interesting though that no paper exists (that i can think of) that doers not report without editorial bias. Probably because no one would read it. Deep down we either like to have our own veiws confirmed or be outraged and therefore have our own veiws confirmed by the papers we read.

I think the point that always gets overlooked in these threads is the reason the EU was originally set up. It was to rectify the inequities that caused World War 2 and to stop us Europeans from fighting each other. In this it has been singularly successful.

Some time people will wake up to the fact that wars are caused by inequality. The sooner we get our heads around that concept the better the world will be. The truest words spoken in respect of 9/11 were by Cherie Blair, when she said the only way we will resolve this is by understanding and addressing what it is that makes young intelligent men so desperate that they see an action like this as the only way open to them. Obviously she got panned by the Tory press for that bit of subversion!

BigDummy did you really just suggest that people aren't better off now than they were in the 50s with rationing etc? I see you've edited it now. 🙂

Any basis for that?

Yeah, it's based on factual information. I haven't got any links to provide you with, but if you research/check what wages were 30 years ago as a percentage of GDP, and compare them with what they are now, I believe that you'll find there has been a 25% decrease. IIRC the figures are 12% to 8%. Let me know if I've got it wrong though.

EDIT : the 12% to 8% suggests that it's in fact more than 25% – but I'm fairly sure that's correct.

[Shifted down as the edit is confusing]

It's quite tricky to find a good graph of wages as a share of GDP over time. I am quite convinced that ernie is correct, as he generally is.

This PWC report is fairly clear. [might need to copy and paste: http://www.pwc.co.uk/pdf/PwC-Wage_inflation-July2005.pdf ]

Although this suggests you don't understand what ernie is talking about:

better off now than they were in the 50s with rationing

"Genetically, paedophiles have more genes in common with crabs than they do with you and me. Now that is scientific fact. There's no real evidence for it, but it is scientific fact."

😉

Although this suggests you don't understand what ernie is talking about:

better off now than they were in the 50s with rationing

Please explain then, and while you're at it please explain how this means that plumbers should get paid at least 60k a year, and we shouldn't let in the immigrants?

I believe that on average, wages, as percentage of GDP, have reduced by about 25% in the last 30 years.

Any basis for that? I 'believe' that on average people are wealthier now than ever before.

It is possible for both statements to be true.

I believe that on average, wages, as percentage of GDP, have reduced by about 25% in the last 30 years. This is one of the most important reasons for the huge growth in recent decades of credit dependency. And goes to the very heart of why Britain was so affected by the 'credit crunch'.

Not sure how this is relevant anyway – my point is that some tradesmen charged high prices due to a shortage of their skills in the market. What is the relevance of wages/GDP to that?

So are we better off or worse?
Is gordon blairs "british jobs for british people" fair or correct? or should it be completely free market?

What is the relevance of wages/GDP to that?

I was just commenting on your comment, quote : "I am suggesting that in many cases the wages may have been artificially high" And just pointing out that Britain is a low wage economy in comparison to the recent past.

If you thought my point was irrelevant, fair enough – you could have just ignored it *shrugs shoulders*

🙂

So …. immigration policy is dictated by economics then, not racism ?

glad that's sorted out

"Auf Wiedersehen Pet" anyone ? the UK has been there before ….

I've rather got the impression that recently most people haven't got richer but instead have borrowed significantly more than was done before mostly due to remortgaging and cheap credit. Whilst not being in the same situation as BD I am in a legally protected profession although about half my office originate from outside the UK.
(Whilst I sit on my balcony overlooking Lac Leman, waiting for my bath to finish drawing and thinking about what wine to go with dinner – must go the Vuelta is on tv)