Got to give Ali respect for beating Sonny Liston twice who seemed pretty formidable and George Foreman who had previously destroyed Joe Frazier .

Yep, foreman (mark 1) was an absolute beast…

I’d of liked to see how a prime tyson got on with the likes of Lewis and Bowe (appreciate that his prime was before that pair established themselves so theoretical)

I got the impression that if they could stand up to tyson for the first 4 or 5 rounds then both would have beaten him.

Well it’s all hypothetical but given that Lewis was knocked out by Oliver McAll and Hasim Rahman I have to suspect that it wouldn’t have ended well for him against a prime Tyson . Bowe was , in my opinion not quite as good as Lewis and probably would have gone the same way .

But look what Lewis did to Rahman when he took it seriously. IMO Lewis is underrated.

Yes Lewis avenged both of those defeats and was a great world champion , not least for the dignity with which he conducted himself out of the ring . He beat up a past it Iron Mike but I fancy in his prime it would have ended differently . All speculation and means nothing though does it .

Lewis’s defeats certainly count against him but he is far better than anyone that tyson ever beat.

I give him a free pass for the 1st Rahman fight, he was clearly massively out of shape and unprepared. You saw what happened the 2nd time.

Mccall I’m not sure you can say he was unprepared, he was young, motivated and in his prime. Just got hit by a great punch. (whether he should have been allowed to carry on as the champ is up for debate)

I personally have lewis slightly above tyson, certainly his record is better, he beat better fighters. But Head to head would be an absolute pickem

Which kind of highlights the issue with P4P all time lists. We are comparing apples with pears, especially at heavyweight. Not many people would ever rate lewis or tyson over Louis in a p4p list for example, but I’d put good money on both winning head to head. Louise was about 15 stone, dont think Ali was much bigger. Even tyson, who was pretty small for a modern heavy weighed well over 16.

I do realise this thread has completely gone off topic! Maybe a boxing thread is required, similar to the UFC one.

Seem to be a few posters on here who know there stuff, and I never get tired of bickering about who would beat who in theoretical match ups!

Holmes was out of the ring 2 years and 38 when he lost to Tyson. Holmes fought Ali when Ali was 38 and pre fight medicals said Ali should not be given a license due to speech slurring and numbness and tingling in his hands.
Can’t recall much about Ali v Berbick other than it was his last fight

Oh ffs mate, don’t you know what a WINK means??

Oh ffs mate, don’t you know what a WINK means??

technically kevin Mcbride is better than Ali…:-)

Exactly. And Danny Williams! 😆

Exactly. And Danny Williams!

you know what that means right?

Audley Harrison is better that Ali.

My world has officially been turned upside down. (although I always rooted for A Force, I just loved his optimism)

Annnyway! Billy Joe’s fight was a right flop. Callum Smith’s was a surprisingly entertaining do – proper tough Swede had him worried a few times. Will spend the rest of the week catching up on the undercards.

Ramsey Neil – Member
Got to give Ali respect for beating Sonny Liston twice who seemed pretty formidable and George Foreman who had previously destroyed Joe Frazier .

The Ali myth again. Look at fight film of Liston – he was pretty terrible. Sure he had a nasty fearsome reputation that proceeded him; something Foreman adopted later to good effect … but skills wise, Liston was very bad.
There have been a couple books written on Liston (Night Train being very good) and document his heavy involvement in organised crime and his drug addictions at time of the Clay/Ali fight.

Practically every ringside report of the fight called it a fix. And not a very well orchestrated one because it was so blatantly obvious … the birth of the Ali ‘Phantom Punch’ myth was born!

Liston was a pretty bad junkie when he faced Clay/Ali, and in debt with his organised crime paymasters. Fight fixing was still quite common then … for someone as tough to get KO’d by a punch nobody actually saw raises questions.

The Ali win over Foreman was a great win; although based 99% on tactics than superior skills. Ali played mind games on Foreman from the start and basically allowed him to punch himself out … no easy task for sure, and worthy of respect. But not as if Ali used superior boxing skills to outbox and out punch him to do the job.

(Yep – I not an Ali fan)

do people think that you need a career defining fight like Ali Frazier , or Leonard Hearn

I do as the only way to be able to measures someones greatest is by them beating the best

If you dominate in a very weak era then your legacy will always be poorer than someone who dominates in a strong era because its easier to beat poorer fighter than better ones

Ali, like tyson, at their best looked unbeatable

RJJ looked unbeatable at his best. Then he went on a world tour of being knocked out!

Calazaghe’s record similar to Mayweathers and he beat some top boxers but is he in anyones top ten?

If you dominate in a very weak era then your legacy will always be poorer than someone who dominates in a strong era

But then you have a sort of inflation over time as well. Like people are saying, a lot of Ali’s opponents were chumps too. Maybe in 10 years Tyson’s oppponents too will be elevated?

It’s very hard to take talk of fighters being born over a 100 years ago being best P4P seriously. Especially when there’s no footage of them. It’s like saying Hercules was the best ever. End of story.

Plus in the modern era anyone fighting over 100 fights would belong in a vegetable salad, not a boxing ring. Makes you think what happened to those poor bastards later in life and their opponents who’d have been in an ever more desperate position.

There are similar arguments made in all sports, I know, but with something as brutal as fighting you’d think you’d agree modern fighters face opponents in better condition.

If you dominate in a very weak era then your legacy will always be poorer than someone who dominates in a strong era because its easier to beat poorer fighter than better ones

Although Lennox seems to be seen as an all-time great for dominating in a poor era. He may have been, but god I hated his boxing style! So I’d never rate him “up there”. Give me Holyfield any day. Fantastic to watch.
Ali & Tyson both lost some of their best years due to ahem unfortunate circumstances. We’ll never know how good they could’ve been in their absolute prime.
*has picture of Ali on kitchen wall*

curiousyellow – Member

If you dominate in a very weak era then your legacy will always be poorer than someone who dominates in a strong era

But then you have a sort of inflation over time as well. Like people are saying, a lot of Ali’s opponents were chumps too. Maybe in 10 years Tyson’s oppponents too will be elevated?

It’s very hard to take talk of fighters being born over a 100 years ago being best P4P seriously. Especially when there’s no footage of them. It’s like saying Hercules was the best ever. End of story.It’s obv up to you how view a p4p list, there are no rules, but the golden age of boxing was pre-WW2. So I’d view fighters from that era as the pioneers who should always be ranked higher p4p. No one thinks today’s jazz musicians are better than Charlie Parker or Thelonious Monk, for example – objectively speaking they might be, the same way Lennox Lewis would rinse Joe Louis in a hypothetical matchup, but in context there’s no real comparison to who is greater.

I’m pretty sure a musical analogy doesn’t fit. And rating ALL?? pre-war boxers above post? Pure nostalgia if you ask me. But as I don’t do all time p4P ratings, you can do em how you like I suppose!

Definitely pure nostalgia. They probably had much worse conditioning and nutrition for starters. It’s like saying Borg and McEnroe were the greatest ever when we have players like Federer and Nadal around.

Agree with you also about the comparison to music. If comparing pre WW2 fighters to modern fighters is apples to oranges, then music to boxing is apples to transistors!

Kirkland Lang was a ridiculously talented boxer who never fulfilled his potential.

Certainly was. Mainly due beating Duran and going off the rails. That Duran fight was shown a few weeks back (BoxNation I think) – really boring fight!
Unlike the Laing v Colin Jones bouts.

I’ve just paid for an ITV Box Office show! 😯

(Not Eubank v No-Hoper) – George Groves v Jamie Cox… suspect Groves will have rather too much for him, but Jamie’s a fiery one, so it’s gonna be a good fight. I guarantee it 🙂

Worth a tenner, that lot. Good night of boxing

Just watched it free on youtube.
Groves vs Eubank should be good.

What, the whole card? Blimey, quick work by someone getting that lot uploaded! John Ryder was a surprise eh?