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Giving Iran a slap

136 posts & 47 voices | Started 6 months ago by iDave | Latest reply from zippykona

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molgrips - Member

Defending yourself is not being belligerent.

If I were a raving nutter looking to throw my weight around, I'd be pretty keen on obtaining the one thing that the West are scared of. A nuke in the hands of a raving nutter.

DJ can't possibly hope to raise enough of an army to actually commit an act of aggression. But he knows damn well that people will start listening if he has a nuke, because they are so scared of it being used.

Grum - not condoning or condemning anyone with this line of thought - just explaining how people are thinking, as I see it.

Posted 6 months ago #
grum - Member

I'm just saying, there's a big difference between belligerent rhetoric and actual aggression AFAIC.

Posted 6 months ago #
molgrips - Member

Of course, but the West trust themselves not to start flinging nukes around. They don't trust DJ. Nor do I, listening to him rant and rave.

Posted 6 months ago #
grum - Member

They don't trust DJ. Nor do I, listening to him rant and rave.

I imagine it's just populist rabble-rousing - I highly doubt he's actually that stupid. I'd be much more worried about Pakistan TBH - actually has nukes, unstable government, fundamentalist nutters control hefty parts of the country and have a huge sway over much of the population. Don't think they've got any oil though so who cares?

Posted 6 months ago #
ernie_lynch - Member

Defending yourself is not being belligerent.

Yes I know.

They don't trust DJ. Nor do I, listening to him rant and rave.

Well they don't trust him to hand over Iran's oil to them at a price which suits them, or better still, let them help themselves, that's for sure. But as I've already stated, under the Bush Administration US intelligence concluded that Iran did not intend to acquire nuclear weapons. That information was however ignored and binned.

And if you molgrips, don't trust Ahmadinejad, listening to him rant and rave, then I suggest that you stop listening to him. I don't bother. Besides, if what he says really bothered you, then you believe him when he says that Iran has no desire to acquire nuclear weapons. Personally, what he says has zero influence on me.

Posted 6 months ago #
alpin - Member

among the country's intellectuals and middle classes the guy is a joke figure.

the GF dad is constantly laughing at and forwarding videos sent to him by his relatives. admittedly these relatives do not live in Iran.

DJ still wields a lot of power and suppost amongst the county's poor and uneducated - of which there are many. he is seen to be the face of the group that toppled the old, british and US backed system.

Libya was a very bad idea and it's going to come back to haunt us in years to come (the US knew what they were doing bailing out early there - on top of not wanting to appear to be a world aggressor again - I think a lot of politicians in Europe realised too, but appearing to be so weak was not an option).

whereas the seppo's little adventures in the gulf and thos hills in the back of beyond were a great idea and have really helped promote US relationships with all countries involved.

i think Lybia is slightly different. there was a strong movement of people calling for a change and the West supported them. whether the West done this to further themslves is another matter.

bollox.. what you said...

Posted 6 months ago #
rossi46 - Member

The Islamic Republic of Iran has never attacked any country.

Does that mean it never will?

It wasnt long ago that Iran made some comments about 'wiping Israel off the map'. Thats fighting talk that is....

Posted 6 months ago #
rossi46 - Member

If you can't trust a country to have nuclear weapons because of what 'might' happen in the future, then let's disarm all countries with nuclear weapons. I'm up for that.

Its a double edges sword, if you get rid of your own nukes then some rogue state (which Iran is decribed as, and North Korea) aquires their own, then we would all be up sh1t creek without a paddle.

But yes, this is ideally what needs to happen for world peace. That and the eradication of greed. Which is what we is the West are guilty of.

Seeing as neither of these things are likely to happen, looks like we'll need some UFO's to come find us or for God himself to drop out of the sky and give us all a slap!

Posted 6 months ago #
ahwiles - Member

I don't believe that Iran intends to acquire nuclear weapons

i wish i lived in your world.

is it just a coincidence that the nuclear technology being developed by Iran is perfect for producing weapons?

they're even producing heavy water - you have permission to shit your pants.

one day, in the next few years, iran will test nuclear weapons*, and the world will have become a much more dangerous place.

i have a curse; i can see the future, and it's not all butterflies and rainbows.

yes, we have nuclear weapons, we have no divine right to control the rest of the world. But our weapons were here when we were born, and frankly, they're a bit of a nuisance.

However, if i lived in Tehran, i'd be concerned by the kind of scary people posturing for election in America.

(*they may not even test them, they may just drive a truck or 4 over some borders, and incinerate a few million europeans/jews/sunni muslims/indians)

Posted 6 months ago #
rossi46 - Member

they're even producing heavy water - you have permission to shit your pants.

Posted 6 months ago #
rossi46 - Member

Posted 6 months ago #
molgrips - Member

And if you molgrips, don't trust Ahmadinejad, listening to him rant and rave, then I suggest that you stop listening to him.

Since when is stopping listening ever a good thing?

Alpin - yes I knew that a great many Iranians think DJ is a nutter. I think that if he could just be replaced the situation would improve significantly. Not sure how many other conservative/hawkish influences there are on govt policy though, isn't there a clerical system with a big say?

Posted 6 months ago #
ahwiles - Member

oh, and Iran is already at war with America, in a few small countries (you may not have heard of them) called Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan.

And are we suggesting that america/britain is responsible for all of the deaths in Iraq? - cos that's bollocxs.

Iran have been providing explosives/weapons/people/training for use against western forces and civilians, for years, probably as soon as Baghdad fell - if not before.

but no, it's all our fault - Iran is blameless.

dammit, i'm starting to sound like donald rumsfeld...

(yes, i know that Iran has good reason to hate America/Britain, and can be forgiven for worrying about an American/British friendly country being re-forged
on their doorstep)

Posted 6 months ago #
crankboy - Member

"oh, and Iran is already at war with America, in a few small countries (you may not have heard of them) called Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan"

The Americans and Rumsfeld in particular paid for and supported The saddam regime in Iraq the Mujahideen and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan and the Pakistani intelligence who are now supporting the Taliban .

Yes Iran now supplies America's former allies and puppets but who can blame them after years of America supporting the Shah, setting saddam Hussein on them in a genocidal war and shooting down Iranian passenger airliner's by mistake and giving a medal and a hero's welcome to the psychopath who did it.

Dinner Jacket can rant and rave and play with his physics set all he likes but he has a long way to go before he is a credible threat to world peace . regrettably the western powers are already that threat.

Posted 6 months ago #
FuzzyWuzzy - Member

Whilst I can see the argument that some countries have nukes so why shouldn't others I think in certain cases, including Iran, it would be the start of a very slippery slope. Once Iran goes nuclear then the likelihood of them falling into the hands (or being given...) of terrorists goes up a big notch. Also they're presumably likely to consider trading them to other allies in the region - who all share a hatred of Israel and, even if the state itself wouldn't condone it, have very influential groups within them that currently support attacks on Israel and it's Western allies. Nukes are a great deterrent for Nations but not for terrorist groups.

I also don't buy that Iran is a benign nation - whatever your views on Israel (and might aren't particularly supportive) they have pretty much pledged to destroy them. I know is I were an Israeli I'd want to strike first. Ofc I'm sure the population as a whole is much more moderate but their president (and I'd guess many around him) is a complete fruitcake.

As for Iran not even wanting nukes - again I don't buy this, the amount of money they're investing in centrifuges and the fact they're developing and testing medium-range rocket systems leads to one conclusion for me - what else can you conclude?

Posted 6 months ago #
molgrips - Member

Dinner Jacket can rant and rave and play with his physics set all he likes but he has a long way to go before he is a credible threat to world peace

They're not worried about him starting a world war, they are worried about him dropping a nuke on Tel Aviv, London or anywhere else.

Posted 6 months ago #
Clong - Member

Do you think the populace of iran worry about us doing the same to them?

Given our history i suspect, as has been already pointed out, they have more to fear from us then we do of them.

Posted 6 months ago #
molgrips - Member

I don't think we have a history of lobbing nukes at random countries.

Posted 6 months ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

Nope - neither does Iran.

We do however have a long and dishonerable history of going into countries in the middle east on flimsy pretexts and killing lots of their people. Iran does not.

We also have a long and dishonourable history of installing puppet regimes in other countries and in destabilising existing governments.

Iran has far more reason to be afraid of us than we do of them. Its quite possibly the best way to stop us wreaking their country is to pretend they have a nuke and will use it if attacked

I have seen no convincing evidence that they are trying to build one anyway

Posted 6 months ago #
Elfinsafety - Member

Whilst I can see the argument that some countries have nukes so why shouldn't others I think in certain cases, including Iran, it would be the start of a very slippery slope. Once Iran goes nuclear then the likelihood of them falling into the hands (or being given...) of terrorists goes up a big notch.

Really? Really? Is this a genuinely likely scenario, or just yet more Western Propaganda designed to cover up the West's real reasons for any possible invasion?

Do you know just how difficult it actually is to target and launch nuclear missiles? How many 'terrorists' do you think are sufficiently skilled in such technology to be able to make it work?

I also don't buy that Iran is a benign nation - whatever your views on Israel (and might aren't particularly supportive) they have pretty much pledged to destroy them.

What Ahmedinejad actually said was:

Our dear Imam (referring to Ayatollah Khomeini) said that the occupying regime must be wiped off the map and this was a very wise statement. We cannot compromise over the issue of Palestine. Is it possible to create a new front in the heart of an old front. This would be a defeat and whoever accepts the legitimacy of this regime has in fact, signed the defeat of the Islamic world. Our dear Imam targeted the heart of the world oppressor in his struggle, meaning the occupying regime. I have no doubt that the new wave that has started in Palestine, and we witness it in the Islamic world too, will eliminate this disgraceful stain from the Islamic world.

Which doesn't sound very nice at all, granted, but is in response to Israeli aggression against Palestine. Something that many people, including many Jews worldwide, utterly condemn. Many Muslims see the aggressive Lebensraum policy of some Zionists to indeed be a threat to Islam, and tbh the Israeli regime isn't doing an awful lot to dispel this fear.

I know is I were an Israeli I'd want to strike first

What about if you were an Iranian supporter of Ahmed? Would you want Iran to strike first? Knowing that Israel are definitely planning to attack your country?

Ofc I'm sure the population as a whole is much more moderate but their president (and I'd guess many around him) is a complete fruitcake.

Fair point. But then, GeeDubya wasn't exactly playing with a full deck now, was he? What was that he said, something about being guided by God?

As for Iran not even wanting nukes - again I don't buy this, the amount of money they're investing in centrifuges and the fact they're developing and testing medium-range rocket systems leads to one conclusion for me - what else can you conclude?

If I were in a nation which looked quite likely to be invaded by hostile forces, I think I'd want to be armed with some pretty hardcore deterrent....

Posted 6 months ago #
richmtb - Member

If I were in a nation which looked quite likely to be invaded by hostile forces, I think I'd want to be armed with some pretty hardcore deterrent....

Its an interesting point Elf, you could argue that Iran feels that they have been forced into this buy what they see as western aggression. But I still can't help feeling the world would be a safer place without Iran having nuclear weapons.

Israel will set the agenda though if there is strong evidence that Iran is close to getting nukes then they will demand American intervention or do the job themselves. America will be forced to intervene as they know that Israel acting alone virtually guarantees a wider conflict in the Middle East.

Diplomacy is the only way forward here, engagement with Iran politically (and not through sanctions) to persuade them that acquiring nukes is a very bad idea, a peace dividend in the form of increased trade perhaps?

Posted 6 months ago #
Elfinsafety - Member

But I still can't help feeling the world would be a safer place without Iran having nuclear weapons.

I can't help feeling the World would be a safer place without any nuclear weapons, but there you go.

Given Israel's history of agression towards Islamic nations and people, I'm more concerned about them having nukes, but the West does not seem to think this is a problem.

Diplomacy is the only way forward here

Definitely. War in the ME will spark off a series of events Worldwide, which will make 9-11 look like a tea-party. And China could well see it as their opportunity to finally really show their military hand...

Posted 6 months ago #
richmtb - Member

I can't help feeling the World would be a safer place without any nuclear weapons, but there you go.

Well thats a given, or equally you could probably make a case for everyone having lots of nukes!

The elephant in the room is Pakistan - nuclear weapons and a government that looks seriously shaky (and they are Shia Muslim the same as Iran) If the west can help Pakistan to sort out their internal issues and be the honest brokers in the region then maybe they can talk Iran back from the brink. (seems unlikely though)

Not sure if I would be too worried about China, economic power seems more their bag to be honest. They are more likely to sit back and let it all kick off around them and see America get into even more debt

Posted 6 months ago #
Markie - Member

Do you know just how difficult it actually is to target and launch nuclear missiles? How many 'terrorists' do you think are sufficiently skilled in such technology to be able to make it work?
Extremely? And probably none. But sufficiently skilled to make a 'dirty bomb' using the enriched material that is a necessary part of a 'proper' bomb? Plenty.

Posted 6 months ago #
molgrips - Member

The missile is the hard part, all you need to deliver them is a truck.

Everyone knows the world would be a safer place without nukes, but it took 30 years for politicans to get around to doing something about it. We've been decommissioning for years it seems.

Posted 6 months ago #
doh - Member

slightly ot but there is a very good doc about the nuclear threat in all its forms called "countdown to zero". the most eye opening/alarming part is the step by step guide on how to build a bomb for a few tens of thousand dollars using off the shelf components, it seems the only hard part is getting the nuclear material.

Posted 6 months ago #
iDave - Member

I have some good friends in Iran, great people, they don't deserve any more shit from the west, or their own regime for that matter.

Posted 6 months ago #
molgrips - Member

Oh aye, building basic nuclear bombs is really really easy. Refining the uranium is quite hard.

+1 iDave btw.

Posted 6 months ago #
ernie_lynch - Member

ahwiles - Member

"I don't believe that Iran intends to acquire nuclear weapons"

i wish i lived in your world.

ahwiles - Member

oh, and Iran is already at war with America, in a few small countries (you may not have heard of them) called Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan.

Well you don't live in the real world ahwiles, yours is a fantasy world created by the likes of Bush, Blair, Obama, and Cameron. If you come over to the real world you'll see that things are actually much clearer.

Iran despised the Saddam Hussein regime, the US did them a great favour getting rid of it for them. Likewise in Afghanistan, Iran is a bitter enemy of the Taleban, and they helped the US to overthrow them. In Pakistan any armed opposition to the government comes from Al Qaeda, Iran is opposed to Al Qaeda. And indeed it is elements within the Pakistan security service, the US's suppose ally, who are aiding the Taleban in Afghanistan to fight the US.

Iran is not "at war with America", that's complete bollox. The US has done Iran a great favour getting rid of two very hostile anti-Iranian regimes. One on Iran's western border, and the other one on Iran's eastern border (both a very long way from the United States btw) for which they are rather grateful. Here's an example of their gratitude :

Iran offers to help US rebuild Afghanistan

Posted 6 months ago #
ernie_lynch - Member

It wasnt long ago that Iran made some comments about 'wiping Israel off the map'. Thats fighting talk that is....

I don't know Persian terminology, or how it translates, but whilst I doubt there is very much that I could ever agree with Ahmadinejad on, wiping the Zionist regime off the face of world is one of those rare exceptions.

I am totally opposed to the Israeli state. It is a nasty racist warmongering rogue state, which acts illegally, ignores basic civilised rules, and avoids its international obligations, including the Geneva Convention. The only reason it gets away with it, is because it's best buddies with the world's number one bully - which supports it to the hilt, both economically and militarily.

I do not support the 'two state solution', I support the 'one state solution'......the one secular non-racist democratic Palestinian state, in which all Palestinians, including Jews, Muslim, Christian, and Atheists, have full citizenship.

Israel is a stain on the world, and Americans, Brits, Australians, Russians, whatever, do not have the right to steal Palestinian land because of some absurd and ridiculous claim that three thousand years ago God promised their ancestors that they could have it. Actually God did no such thing, he condemned the Jewish people to diaspora - to wander the world in exile until he (not the US president) led them to the Promise Land. Which is why many Orthodox Jews in Israel do not support the Israeli State, and are actually often quite supportive of the Palestinians.

The other equally absurd and ridiculous reason for the right of Americans, Brits, Australians, Russians, whatever, to steal the homeland of Palestinians, is that 70 years ago Germans and other Europeans did terrible things to Jews.

There is nothing wrong with calling for the destruction of the Zionist State, and I don't expect to be bombed for saying so any more than Ahmadinejad should. Although obviously I'm not sitting on vast reserves of oil.

Posted 6 months ago #
zippykona - Member

Libya was a huge enemy that needed getting rid of. Then we find the secret services were all great mates.
All we can do where ever we live is ignore our 'leaders' calls for war.
Killing peoples children will not make them like you.

Posted 6 months ago #