Looking for a smallish camera (considerably smaller than a true SLR) that I can take out on the trails and get good shots with. I’m happy to spend some time on post processing to get the best out of the shots and to spend time learning how to get the best out of the camera when out and about. It also needs to be perfectly good at taking family shots, especially indoors (where our current compact really fails) and be happy enough as point and shoot for my wife to use.

Is the GF1 a good bet (I’ve read umpteen reviews online and it does seem to fit the bill), or should I be looking at something else like the Oly EPL-1, Sony NEX5 (not sure about the menus here) or even one of the pro compacts like the LX5 or the S95? Are these really that much better in low light than a “normal” compact?

GF1 – brilliant!
Sold it once, then bought it again for the 2nd time !
Have tried Sony NEX5 – nice camera, but menus are v.fiddly Vs Lumix menus which are easy to get along with.
Oly is meant to be just as good – but not tried it myself.
Made me sell my canon DSLR & lens and now just use the GF1 – of the 2 lens I have 14-45 zoom and 20mm pancake – the latter is the winner by far.
Also have a Lumix TZ8 as a decent compact to compliment the GF1 when you want something even more pocketable.

Yup, great little camera.. versatile enough to take some great shots on a recent trip to Nepal but small enough (with 20mm pancake lens) to fit in the rear pockets of my cycling jacket (or not take up much space in a backpack).

Oly E-PL1 is a very good camera.
PL1 has the iAuto mode which basically turns it into a Point and Shoot, which may be handy on a Family camera.
720p video is very good too.
Full manual overide for when you want to fiddle.
Adaptors available to fit pretty much any old manual lenses you may have for yet more fiddling.
Main disadvantage is that Olympus (or anyone else) don’t do a range of cheap lenses.
The twin lens kit (inc a 4/3 adaptor) is good value.

I certainly hope so, getting mine this morning, £430 with the 14-45 lens from John Lewis.

I think Olympus do do a range of cheap lenses. How cheap do you want? Olympus lenses are among the best budget items around, so I’ve read. At least in full-size 4/3 format.

I really liked the NEX5 menus btw and usability when I picked it up in the shop – but then again I didn’t try messing with it in depth.

As for point and shoot – all DSLRs and MILs (mirrorless interchangeable lens) seem to have this mode too.

Worth noting that the MILs are not all that much smaller than a DSLR – it’s mostly the shape rather than the size that’s a pain. They are also a bit slower than a real DSLR.

It’s worth noting that the likes of Olympus full DSLRs are a lot smaller than Canon etc.

Had my GF1 for just over a year.
The fact its totally manual or fully automatic.
You can buy adapters to take all manner of manual lens from Nikon, canon etc etc.
Grum will be along soon to post some of his stunning pics and SFB will no doubt be along to say dont bother etc etc 😉

Its capable of taking very good pics and its a mean job in movies as well. Just need bigger SD cards for movies.

You’ll probably get a better camera for your money with an older dslr such as the Canon 450D. However they are a bit bigger, but with a small lens it shouldn’t be too bad..

I’ve had a go on the GF-1 and really liked how easy it was to use manually, the only thing that puts me off buying one is that it doesn’t have a viewfinder unless you pay £100 extra for the add-on which isn’t meant to be that good. GF-1 users, do you find the lack of a viewfinder a problem when shooting in sunlight, for example? Also are they good for action bike shots?

Yes, the GF-1 is a good bet.

I’ve got the olympus pen, very little in it between them. I’d see which is the cheapest unless there’s some specific feature you want (I wanted the in-body stabilisation of the olympus rather than the lens based system on the panasonic).

The Nex is a better camera in many ways but the lenses are huge, which ruled it out as a biking camera for me.

As for whether any of these are better than a compact depends on what you’ll do with it. If you just select a scene mode and take a snap, and post the results online then probably not. If you want more control or plan on printing large prints, then yes (or potentially yes at least).

Like I say, DSLRs are fully automatic too if needed.

Only differences between a DSLR and a MIL are:

1) size
2) no viewfinder
3) slower AF

And shoei’s pic would have been good on any camera 🙂

Only differences between a DSLR and a MIL are:

I prefer Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Format 🙂

I’ve had SLRs in the past (film ones, a fairly long time pre digital being the main choice) and rarely used them because they were too big and bulky to take with me. I’ve just been in town and had a play with the EPL-1 (no GF1 in stock) and it seemed really nice. The folding lense was a good feature and the menus were quite familiar feeling. Also at £380 it seemed very good value. Would the Panasonic 20mm pancake fit the olympus?

Only differences between a DSLR and a MIL are:

1) size
2) no viewfinder
3) slower AF

Not entirely true.. most MIL cameras use significantly smaller sensors, many have viewfinders (albeit digital) and AF speed can be more dependant on the lens than the body.

And shoei’s pic would have been good on any camera

This is true though.. the ability to shoot great photos is as much (more?) to do with the skill of the photographer as the camera they are using – check out Flickr for some of the amazing camera-phone photos!

At the end of the day, get the camera that is right for what you want to do.. no point getting a bulky DSLR kit if it means you won’t take it with you. Ultimately the full-frame (ie. DSLR) cameras can be capable of better results in the right hands, but for most they are just overkill.

Hi there :),

I have a GF1, and now have a 5D also. The GF1 is really fantastic little camera – the quality you can get from such a small package (with the 20mm 1.7 especially) is nothing short of amazing imo. Mine easily fits in a jacket pocket.

It isn’t ideal for biking action shots as the AF isn’t fast (though still faster than compacts) but if you use a deep DOF and/or prefocus you can still get some pretty good action shots.

Have a look at my website if you like 🙂 – all taken with the GF1 or G1 (which is also very good, basically the same but slightly bigger and has a viewfinder/flippy screen).

http://www.grahamwynnephoto.com

Would the Panasonic 20mm pancake fit the olympus?

Yes, all M43 lenses are interchangeable.. Panasonic ones tend to be more expensive than the equivalent Olympus ones as the former have the image stabilisation (IS) built into the lens rather than the body (although the 20mm does not). The Olympus is also available with a 17mm pancake lens.

If you’re buying new then Panasonic have a deal on at the moment where you can get Adobe Elements / Premiere for free..

I think someone had a mint GF1 body for sale on here too..

and AF speed can be more dependant on the lens than the body.

I think that the Pen uses contrast detect AF which is slower than phase detect, no?

Ultimately the full-frame (ie. DSLR) cameras can be capable of better results in the right hands, but for most they are just overkill.

Overkill perhaps, but they are the fastest things around, which makes a big difference with action shots such as biking.

You have to make sure that you will not need any sort of zooming capability before you consider micro 4/3 cameras small. The 20mm and the new 14 mm are good lenses but they are inflexible and in my opinion neither is brilliant for landscapes as they are not wide enough.

The moment you stick a zoom lens in front of those cameras they become as hard to carry as a small entry level DSLR, while being more expensive, have fewer available lenses and they are not anywhere near as good in low light as DX sensors (that last one does not apply for the NEX which has a brilliant DX sized sensor.)

For my money a D3100 or even a e-450 is a better option. Alternatively if you seriously need the portability of a smaller camera look seriously into the LX5/LX3 (second hand LX3s are 250£), G11 (fugly but one heck of a camera) or the S95.

If you need a camera to take pictures of cyclists while they are actually on the bike biking none of the above is any good, AF and/or shutter lag will kill your shots.

The moment you stick a zoom lens in front of those cameras they become as hard to carry as a small entry level DSLR

I disagree somewhat. They are still way smaller and lighter than a Canon or Nikon DSLR, but they are the same overall shape which is inherently awkward yes. The size of lens you need for a good level of zoom is much smaller than it woudl be for a Canon/Nikon DSLR.

However I do agree an E-450 could be an option. Not much bigger than a Pen really and better.

The moment you stick a zoom lens in front of those cameras they become as hard to carry as a small entry level DSLR

I don’t agree either. The Olympus 14-42 is very small and collapsible. And if you want wide the Olympus 9-18mm is also pretty damn small (pricy though).

Compared with an E-420 real DSLR (the smallest around) (although granted it only has the pancake lens – the 14-42 for the E420 is basically the same size as the one on the epl1 in that pic)

Compared to a Canon 5D

If you need a camera to take pictures of cyclists while they are actually on the bike biking none of the above is any good, AF and/or shutter lag will kill your shots.
Pre-focussing and preempting the shot are the order of the day with a m4/3, harder than with a DSLR granted, but you can get perfectly good photos of people riding with one.

Grumm exactly a 10-24mm Tamron costed me 230 and gives me an even wider aspect.

Also comparing it to a 5D is misleading as it is a massive camera, comparing it to a D3100 with a 50mm 1.8 or 35mm 1.8F would be a lot more reasonable.

They are smaller but not by much, they are definitely more expensive (especially when you start looking on lenses) and they are always slower and have worse image quality wise. I’d like the GF2 with the 20mm as my take with me camera but I would never have it as my only camera. An LX3/5, S95, G11 are 1/2-2/3 the price, lighter and a lot more flexible – zoom lens and all.

Not amazing pictures but perfectly fine imo (my gf probably wouldn’t agree 🙂 )

Grumm exactly a 10-24mm Tamron costed me 230 and gives me an even wider aspect.

Yup and is probably about twice the size.

Basically there is obviously a trade off between portability and performance – for me the GF1 is pretty much spot on, for others it won’t be small enough.

Eventually, I’ll have a small DSLR and a slim compact, perhaps weatherproof.

I think Olympus do do a range of cheap lenses. How cheap do you want? Olympus lenses are among the best budget items around, so I’ve read. At least in full-size 4/3 format.

True, the kit lenses are well thought of as some of the better kit lenses, the rest of the Zuiko Digital range is superb but quite expensive 8mm – £550, 11-22mm – £650, 12-60mm – £700

most MIL cameras use significantly smaller sensors

Not strictly true,unless you only use expensive “Full Frame” DSLR’s, the PEN uses the same sensor as the Olympus E5 DSLR the Sony NX uses APS-C, another popular DSLR sensor size. Both of these sensors are significantly bigger than fixed lens compacts.
DSLR are better for action photos, if you are serious about sports/action get one of these, for pretty much everything else, without the added complication of changing lenses, a decent compact with a good zoom range will be fine.

So should I be pushing the LX5 / S95 back to the top of the list? They’re certainly far more portable. Do they offer good (much better than most compacts) low light performance for indoors stuff and shooting in the trees?

Please just stop this thread, I’ve just ordered a pompino, the slr has the legendary error99 popping up and now you are making me think of other cameras – but I’ve just spent a fortune on lenses for this one – I think my wife would actually kill me if I buy one!

If not for work I’d happily use the GF1 as my only camera.

One thing you’ll not find on DSLR’s without Pocketwizards is 2nd curtain remote flash. ie it sends the flash trigger signal as the shutter closes, using any cheapy trigger.

Hey up Paul,

I love my lx3 totally blown away with the results on the whole esp love the 24mm wide angle super fast lens, and it’s very responsive. It and the lx5 are the best compact you can buy. You can have a look at my shots no probs. But and it’s a small but, it struggles on long exposures esp when I was trying to take cloud inversion sunrise pics earlier in the year,wished I had my d80. Even though it only struggles on 5% of shots, I’m thinking about selling it for a nex-5 with 16mm lens, not fussed about the prime lens rather than a zoom as it will be fine for biking and landscape shots. They are amazing value at the moment with the vat back offer, they are hard to beat and IMO better than the GF1 due to the lack of wide angle lenses.

Oh – about shooting indoors and under tree cover – the fast lens compared to other compacts means you can use the lower iso settings more in dark shots and still keep the shutter speed up. I use up to iso 400 but would not go higher, but generally don’t need to go above 200.

The LXs are better than the vast majority of compacts in low light, their sensor is twice the size of most compacts and they retain a rather large aperture (2-2.8 for the LX3) throughout the focal length. You can also shoot in RAW so you have a fair amount of headroom to remove noise in post processing.

They do not in any way compare to a GF1 let alone NEX or a DX format SLR in that respect. If it was not for the utterly pointless interface and the rather weird 16mm pancake on the NEX I’d say it is the best compromise yet.

I’d be very careful before making a GF1 my only camera though.

Oh – about shooting indoors and under tree cover – the fast lens compared to other compacts means you can use the lower iso settings more in dark shots and still keep the shutter speed up. I use up to iso 400 but would not go higher, but generally don’t need to go above 200.

DXOmark lets you compare sensors… and you certainly have a point. That fast lens and reasonable noise performance is quite an impressive comnbination.

5th – the lx’s are really good cameras and untouchable in the compact world (as the G series are not compacts or as good). 95% of shots you would not know the difference unless viewed at 100% (but who does that).

But I love my slr and need that step up for those 5% of shots in a small camera. As much as people on here bitch about mirrorless cameras, you can’t ride hard with a full size slr (esp when its straped to your chest!!) and mirrorless will give you the slr sized sensor which makes all the difference for A4/3 prints and long exposures (and high iso – which you don’t need if you have a fast lens)

anybody got any feedback on the add-on view finder units that are offered with the Oly Pen cameras versus samething for Lumix?

Tangent, the oly one is miles better apparently. I don’t find the lack of one a problem in 99% of situations though.

I think quite a few of you guys are a bit more serious about this than me. Most of the time I want a camera I’m happy to carry (not an SLR) that takes pretty good photos in most situations. I currently have a Canon A720 IS, which isn’t that bad, but any of the ones above would blow it out of the water, especially in low light. Maybe the LX5 or S95 would be a better choice for most of what I do.

I had one but sold it on. The size was just a little to large (with the 14-42 zoom) to throw in the pocket and the quality increase on most of my shots wasn’t worth the extra hassle over my old LX3. I’d rather be carrying the LX3 and take a quality hit than miss the shot altogether from not having my camera.
I also found the lack of a viewfinder particulary problematic on the GF 1 in bright sunlight, to the point where it was used as a point and hope then crop later.
Having said all that it was a great camera that felt just right when being used, a real quality piece of kit. I just wish I’d got a bit more use out of it.