I tend to have a penchant, when riding, for over the bars excursions. But even by my normal standards, last Saturdays was pretty spectacular. The upshot of this was a trip to A&E to get my face stitched up – not something I'd recommend.

So after much thought, I think I've come up with a solution

a) Stop riding like a dick!
b) Buy a full face helmet
c) Some combination of the above

So I've noticed a few people on the trails with more XC style full face helmets. Not big downhill nonsense. But something like a normal lid with an extension over your face. So I'm considering one

So does anyone use one? Has anyone had a big off while wearing one? Did it save your nose/face? They do look a bit flimsy to me for the kind of 20mph face/floor interface I just experienced. Any particular make/model you'd recommend

Come on folks. I need to try and preserve my boyish good looks. Or not scare my daughters at least 🙂

Apparently Spesh Deviant is pretty well vented for a 'proper' full face helmet. Those ones with a detachable chin guard look way too flimsy to be any use to me.

Tou could try a MET Parachute although according to some opinions if you do use one IT WILL KILL YOU!!!
The Casco Viper was another option but IIRC no longer available.

Spesh Deviant lightest and best vented of the "proper" full-face lids but still probably quite a lot warmer than what you're used to.

Other full face lids can be worn for XC duty but you WILL look like the Stig and they will be very warm.

FWIW I have a MET parachute and mostly use it without the chin-guard. I have crashed quite badly wearing it (Hooning down Bamford Clough) and although my knee and shoulder were sore enough to stop me continuing, my face was alright.

A lot of controversy over them. There is no real testing or real evidence about FF cycle helmets.

The answer has to be the one that fits and that has the most absorbent material in it. Personally I wouldn't wear on as I believe the risks from rotation from the sticky out chinbar are too great but that is a distinctly controversial position ( but not without evidence)

Motorcycle helmets have the chinbar much closer to your chin – in contact in many cases

I've got a MET Parachute. A big face plant will still be a big face plant but if you plan to briskly rub your face on some gravel for a few feet it'll provide an alternative point of contact to your face.

Motorcycle helmets have the chinbar much closer to your chin – in contact in many cases

Nope. The chin bar is closer than any of my MX lids. The trivial speeds involved with mountainbikes make rotation forces irrelevant anway.

I have one of the new 661 evolution helmets, great fun, really light, looks smart, ventelation is great and got mine for £60 from CRC!

Not so 5th. go read the evidence. Rotational forces are relevant to both the type of brain injury and to neck injury even at low speed. This is a clearly established fact. How big this risk is is not clearly established.

The comparison with motorcycle helmets was with road helmets. MX ones have the same shortcomings as cycle FF and do not have the chinbar included in testing

The crucial thing is the polystyrene that absorbs and dissipates the impact A helmet without this in the chinbar is significantly limited in its ability to absorb the forces from a frontal impact.

I ain't going to get involved in another helmet debate

Giro Remedy Carbon – very light and well ventilated compared to the others I've owned – but not sure I'd like to ride in any full facer all day – MTFU, chicks dig scars!

TandemJeremy – Member

A lot of controversy over them. There is no real testing or real evidence about FF cycle helmets.

I face planted in france at close to 30mph. No **** controversy about that. It worked. The chinbar did it's job. It doesn't absorb, it deflects. It hurt like hell and trashed the lid, but I'd be even uglier now if it wasn't for it.

Oh, get one that fits. Giro Remedy happens to fit me. I can easily wear it all day. Get the carbon version. Light, cool.

But FF for XC? Learn to ride.

d) learn to crash safely

TJ – you've never even worn a cycle specifiv full face have you?
if you "aint going to get involved" why post anything at all on the subject?

The comparison with motorcycle helmets was with road helmets. MX ones have the same shortcomings as cycle FF and do not have the chinbar included in testing

You can't race MX without a FF, not for many years. The speed in MX are low, the speeds in MTB are really low. The primary job of a helmet in either case is to keep you pretty.

I'm about as sold as you are as to the benefit of cycle helmets (I only wear one to race and at trail centres) but a FF clearly offers some abrasion protection, which in my opinion makes them worth wearing.

TJ- in exactly what scenarios would you prefer to wear no helmet?

I have a CF Remedy too and would agree it's really nice & light for a FF. Still too hot for doing long rides though.

MET Parachute is still the best out there for a normal helmet with chin protection. Makes no difference on long rides.

Binners you'll be nervous about your face now when riding, so somthing like that could keep you relaxed. How did you manage this spectualar crash then??!

GW – I was attempting to give info to help the OP make up his mind and pointed out some of the controversy surrounding helmets.

If you ride XC then a full face helmet designed for Downhilling is not a good idea. They are hot and relatively heavy, by hot I mean you will take it off after one or two climbs and wish you hadn't worn it.
I have never seen anyone riding XC with a DH helmet anywhere in the world for the very reasons I mentioned, they simply are not good for it.

The MET para is a good option, and many people wear them with no issues at all. They are not a DH helmet and don't provide the same level of protection but then for XC you shouldn't need it as you aren't going as fast or down the really knarly bits, usually.

In closing I suggest you stop riding like a dick, cos everyone goes over the bars but it should be a rare thing, not a weekly affair. Then get a MET para if you XC, if DH then get a DH helmet and take some lessons before you break your neck.

Do I take that as a firm "no" then TJ?
You really don't seem to know the first thing about the huge range of cycle specific helmets on offer, never mind how they fit, buckle up and exactly what happens when the chin guard is hit. But even if they all did what you are so scared of there are now various neck braces available to deal with your massive "fear of damage from rotational forces".

There is no real testing or real evidence about FF cycle helmets.

There's a new ASTM downhill testing standard, including tests on the chin bar, which some of the DH helmets available in the UK pass (e.g. the Giro Remedy, Bell Drop). As GW says, just stop repeating stuff you've read on cyclehelmets.org, please.

I had a Met Parachute for a bit and, while it didn't maim me horribly, they look gash, the chinbar's irritating while climbing, and it's a world away from a proper full facer. Just stick your arms out next time instead.

GW – I have had them on my head and had a good look at them – I have not ridden in one. From cheapies to the latest POC one.

I am not merely repeating stuff from cyclehelmets.org. I have read widely on this and read a lot of the original research – an area I have been interested in for years.

A helmet with a chinbar with no polystyrene in it will not absorb any significant amount of energy as there is nothing to absorb the energy. I cannot get a full copy of the tests you refer to but this is clear if you understand how a helmet works. Its the poly that does the impact absorption.

There is no point in going over old ground that we have chewed to death but I suggest you go and read some of the research to find out how helmets actually work which many of you clearly don't understand.

A chinbar without poly will stop gravel rash. it will not stop serious injury. Iy has nothing to absorb the energy thus it cannot.

Going to be honest here. I've absolutely no problem with people wearing a full face helmet for riding. After all – who is going to pay your mortgage or put food on your table for you? Only you.

True some people would snigger 'wheres the DH's mate' but if you are going down something technical then its called for.

Plus everyone could do with some formal training. I keep meaning to go on Jedi's. It'll show you what your potentially doing wrong and could save you a very nasty accident later on.

If its riding around the likes of the water park- obviously not but anything with descending or night riding and descending- then why not?!

The HIPS chinguard is mounted to the normal PS helmet with metal inserts.
It seems most likely these inserts would shear in the PS before the HIPS broke, thus providing some de-acceleration.

A helmet with a chinbar with no polystyrene in it will not absorb any significant amount of energy as there is nothing to absorb the energy.

The deformation of polystyrene foam is not the only way energy can be dissipated.

I would further suggest that protection of the skull from impact through deformation of a crushable material is meeting a different requirement to the protection of the face and that a different mechanism to protect the face may be preferable and may rely on deflection or transfer of energy rather than direct absorbtion though a "crumple zone".

Tj, so you've tried a couple of full facers on? You can predict how they'll behave in a crash from this? Maybe you should sell the results of your testing to the manufacturers.

And for someone who claims to be knowledgable about helmets, it's a bit surprising that you don't seem to be aware of the ASTM downhill helmet standard. It's been in existence for a couple of years now. Have cyclehelmets.org not done a commentary on it yet?

Thanks for the replies. Even Tjs nonsense. ooOOoo – you're right. I know I'm going to be nervous about my face now when doing fast descents. I think a MET parachute is on the shopping list.

As for how i did it. Complacency. Simple as that. I was out Saturday and had ridden hell-for-leather down the Belmont which is quite challenging, not to mention an absolute scream!!! When later in the ride we got a fast smooth descent I just wasn't concentrating the same as it looked easy. Big mistake. I was still shifting, saw a dip in the trail, half-heartedly bunny hopped it, misjudged it completely, the back wheel hooked up and the front washed out. I hit the deck hard, face first. I'll try and get a photo up. Its pretty horiffic as it was onto gravel and i slid for a bit

Second the Casco viper

Unlike the MET one which seems to be breakable plastic and bolts (even on the chin area)

The Viper easily clips on and off in seconds without tools but the chin guard is the same construction as the helmet (i.e polystyrene) so better on impacts.

its made by the comapny that makes firefighting equipment so good quality.

I have one and so does my guides in the Italian maritime alps and used in warm/hot weather and any terrain.

you can buy it from here velodromeshop

Mr Agreeable I am aware of the standard you mention but have been unable to get any detail of what it consists of – just generalities about it.

I don't have to wear the helmets or crash in them to understand how they work. Thats what reading the research is about. Everything I say is backed up by science and real research by well respectted scientists.

I suggest you look at the research. Perhaps start with the TRL work on helmets. Or the Snell foundation.

Perhaps if you took your big head out of your arse and tried to learn something you might actually make a little sense. Classic behaviour of the ignorant bully. Attack the person because you have no knowledge to debate their views.

Cheers for that nasher.

For those who want to see my nice gravel rash its on the South Manchester Massive site here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SouthManchesterMassive/attachments/folder/916837122/item/2103482627/view

If you look carefully you can see what turned out to be a huge flap of skin hanging off underneath my nose. Nice!

Now now boys! Cheers for that nasher.

For those who want to see my nice gravel rash its on the South Manchester Massive site here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SouthManchesterMassive/attachments/folder/916837122/item/2103482627/view

If you look carefully you can see what turned out to be a huge flap of skin hanging off underneath my nose. Nice!

Teej, I thought the gist of your arguments about helmets was that the science and the testing didn't describe how they behaved in a "real world" situation? Yet now you're saying that the science backs your views up?

I'm not claiming to be knowledgeable about bicycle helmet design but you made a really simple mis-statement – there are test standards to do with full face helmets.

The ASTM DH standard requires the helmet to protect you from a higher impact velocity (they drop an anvil on the helmet and measure how much force is transfered to your head). The DH standard requires an anvil drop from 1.6 meters vs 1.2 meters.

Plus, the ASTM DH standard requires the chin bar to absorb impacts without deflecting/bending too much.

From the second result on Google.

And I don't want to come over as attacking you personally but you seem to pop up on every helmet thread (even ones like this where your input isn't required at all) with the same tired old bleat. Same with loads of other subjects. People who use GPS is another favourite of yours IIRC. Do you sit around waiting for people to post these subjects so you can weigh in your well-rehearsed diatribes? Because if so, I think this particular one was a bit of a mis-fire on your part.

Binners, you almost look like you enjoyed that. 😯

In my hugely unscientific test of face planting at the bottom of the wall on the fort william WC track spun out in 40:12 on the dh bike, full faces (TLD in this case) help a lot. The only face damage I had was panda eyes from my goggles – my face took the brunt of the impact. Felt like I'd broken my nose when I hit, but it turned out to be ok. OTOH i did spend 3 days strapped to a bed immobile cos of slightly dislocated vertebrae in my neck – possibly from where the back of the helmet dug in when I hit.

Without a chinbar the helmet might not have been tilted back as much – but then mostly that was due to the angle I hit IMO and how I crashed, I don't think it would've made much difference. I do know that without the chinbar I'd have been needing a new face – I have never hit anything that hard before. I was still getting chest pains from the crash over a year later due to damage to the soft tissue in my chest.

So IMO full faces work, and work well. But i'd not buy one for XC (though i have on occasion used mine), as others have said they're far too hot.

Learning to fall does help though, but that's something that comes with experience, and sometimes you just get unlucky.

For Mr Agreeable all pro helmet sites and the TRL and snell foundation are good independent science. helmets org is the counter to cyclehelmets org – an evangelical pro helmet site.

Rad some of this and you might learn something

TRRL on rotational injury
Snell foundation http://www.smf.org/
how helmets work

tjr666 – Member

I have one of the new 661 evolution helmets, great fun, really light, looks smart, ventelation is great and got mine for £60 from CRC!

this.

Mr Agreeable – Member

Teej, I thought the gist of your arguments about helmets was that the science and the testing didn't describe how they behaved in a "real world" situation? Yet now you're saying that the science backs your views up?

100% the opposite. Do try to read and learn. Its a very easy thing to do tho obviously hard for you. Try following some of the links. what you quote there is what I have seen – doesn't really say very much does it. I follow the scinece on this – what little good stuff there is.

Ninners -the casco viper appears to be the best of the XC fullface helmets if that is really waht you want.

tj said There is no real testing or real evidence about FF cycle helmets.

mr disagreeable said Plus, the ASTM DH standard requires the chin bar to absorb impacts without deflecting/bending too much.

Nice use of quantifiable measures there

You can read the full text of the ASTM standard if you purchase it. I'm sure that you will, given how seriously you seem to take this subject. Now that you're aware said standard exists of course. 😉

Do give a deviant a try before you go for a parashute. I've only ridden with mine in winter so far, but was astonished at how light and vented it is. The only diference was a nice warm chin. Proper protection too.

Cheers chaps. I'll go for the try before I buy approach I think, but I'll go for one of the 3. If only so I don't worry so much

And Mr Agreeable – that was just after it happened. I was still a bit light-headed. Things went downhill fairly rapidly after that 🙁

I have a Casco Viper, which has survived a major off which saw me a week in hospital and several head to ground impacts which I reckon may have seen me getting a dental bill or at least some facial injuries.

It's very light,I never remove the chinguard. Ventilation is pretty good when travelling downhill anyway, I strap it to the bars uphill.

It's looking a bit shabby internally, so as I'm sold on the full-face thing I will be looking for a replacement. I like the venting of the parachute but if I can find a light, well vented full facer, without removable chin guard I'll be having it. If not it'll just be a new Casco

Got a parachute & its worked well. I think the main benefit has been the cheek & jaw protection rather than for the full frontal chin impacts – thats DH FF only i'd bet. I offed at Easter in the local woods (Esholt nr Leeds) and used my body armour to absorb the vertical landing damage, and the Met to stop my face being mashed into some large rocks. Most of the impact was on the cheek region for the helmet and my right radius which sorta broke a bit too…but no with FF, even a cheesy one like a parachute, then i'd have had no face…
I've spoken to some lads over at Guisburn forest a few months ago & they were swearing by the Casco viper & being the 1st time id seen one I was mighty impressed. Next on my shopping list pls. The UK importer has changed recently BTW & the new one is here
dont forget the chin guard is a £60 extra, but £150 overall is OK. Better than a trip to the dentist.