And at the point it no longer works what then?

The system has worked for the last hundred years using cheap energy, with the removal of cheap energy what happens

mrmo – if I knew the answers to questions like that, I doubt I’d be sat reading and contributing to this twoddle 😉

It isn’t just cheap energy it’s abundant and easily accessible raw materials…

How can a model based on infinite growth work in a finite world.

You’ve just identified the fundamental problem with capitalism (a system where the economy is in recession if it isn’t growing). We’re all in a giant Ponzi scheme.

Trains…..WTF?!
I drive a car, but really wanted to get the train to Fort William instead of using the car………..200 quid……for each of us…..400 quid in total…..
I could hire a car, pay for the fuel and drive there without having to carry all my gear….and have some money left over to eat a packet of crisps at the end of the road !!!
I live in a rural area…..public transport…..never heard of it…

I live rurally, work in a town 15 odd miles away. 0 public transport. I can and do cycle a bit but sometimes, to be brutally honest usually when it’s lashing down, I just can’t be arsed.

The fact is that the cost of motoring is a tax I pay (not willingly, but find one I enjoy paying eh?) for my family to live where we want to. The car is a necessity for most rural life these days, but then you have to accept you have to pay for it. Realistically though most of the city commuters round here don’t even notice a 30p/L rise in fuel, whilst the older residents, who still need to drive as there are no shops for at least 6 miles, get really stung by it.

My main objection is the funds from it tend to go to the current governments latest vanity project rather than nationalising and subsidising public transport to a point we can all see a payback.

That reverse commuting point though is very interesting. Not noticed it so much but then everyone here is (relatively) well off, and the agricultural labour is either contract (so not local) or still in the few tied houses.

PS – double whammy for a lot of rural residents is that oil heating is common. It doesn’t get affected nearly as much, but it is certainly still noticeable.

Brassneck, don’t take this the wrong way. You have made a choice about where you live I assume and with that choice are certain costs. Those choices were never there for our grandparents, and there parents.my x suspicion is that is the world we may be returning to. One where you live and work reasonably close together.

Junkyard – we have a ridiculous situation if Fife – no doubt replicated all over. The people who work in the fishing villages cannot afford to live their as commuters price them out of the market so they live in the towns and commute to the villages, the people who work in the towns commute from these villages. a two way commute! plainly ridiculous

Happens everywhere – ridiculous state of affairs.

“However rural workers would be able to afford to live in the villages again”

Actually there are very few rural workers. It’s all been increasingly mechanised over the centuries until today, a family farm is run by a family with little extra help. That’s why rural tenants migrated to cities in the first place. Without incomers/commuters, these villages would have gone. I will, however, help you lead a charge against 2nd home owners 🙂

It’s true that rural communities used to function without cars – living standards, life expectancy and quality of life were much lower then too. Rural idylls of that nature are an oxymoron.

The strength of our economy today really depends on flexible workforces that can be made redundant one week and pick up another job the next by being mobile – and usually that means everyone commutes by car.

I don’t know the answer, but I know it isn’t: “you are evil because you drive”. I smell sanctimonium 😀

Fuel has gone up. Most other costs of motoring have gone down. Cars are more economical than they used to be.

Motoring’s still cheap, I reckon. And if you’re finding the commute to work a bit pricey, move closer. You can cycle then.

buzz – there are more to rural workers than farmhands. Teh example in fife include people in teh fishing industry, the people who work inthe shops and cafes in the villages, the people who work in teh tourist industry – non of them can afford to live in the villages where tehy work

I know of this issue from within my family. The farm where my ancestors lived has two cottages. The family farming it has two sons. neither the parents nor the sons can generate enough money from the farm to buy in the village where the family has been for hundred of years – commuters have driven prices up. the parents retired to a town so both sons could still live on the farm – giving up the house they had lived all their lives in to do so. Plenty of houses locally but nothing at a price a farm worker could afford and nothing to rent. NImbys have also ensured that no one canbuild =-so despite these people owning the land they could not build a house on it.

“non of them can afford to live in the villages where tehy work”

I accept that this is a legitimate problem because I see it here too. The situation in Cornwall and Devon quite bad, most obviously affected by 2nd homes lying empty 90% of the time. The fact is, contrast between urban and rural environments attracts many urban dwellers to move to rural areas and use cars. IMO, that problem says a lot about the neglected state of urban environments.

A problem is that commuters (I include myself) command higher salaries than local workers because of the kind of work they do. You might expect wage inflation in local jobs. But often those jobs are in industries with constant pressure on price, e.g. food production. So wages don’t inflate. Of course it re-balances when there aren’t enough workers and wages increase – but there is loads of heartache involved in the near constant social upheaval; welcome to capitalism and market forces 🙁

The Nimbys also get on my wick – while no-one likes a view spoiled – housing is a market suffering from a lack of supply vs demand. These people just will not accept change.

I suggest some solutions. None of them involve kicking-out incomers, since those incomers have brought life and money back to depressed areas.

* More office work could be done in the home with the right connectivity and supervisory mechanisms. I could reduce my car use by 50% easily if our company worked through the issues systematically. And eventually it will (I think).

* More companies could be encouraged to setup in mid-sized rural towns, probably reducing car-miles by 50%.

Aye?

I’ve got three cars and cycle to the station and get the train!!

Can I have a medal??

TJ wrote

Of course teh whole argument is debatable – lots of estimates and what do you include on both credit and debit sides – however the old canard that motorists pay more than they get needs to be refuted and this is a part of that refutation. Teh motorist certainly doesnot contribute meaningfully to the exchequer after costs and as I said if you include capital costs such as land usage then its seriously in deficit.

I see you fail to include in your calculations the £3billion per month in fuel tax revenue, ?? for road tax, ??? for insurance tax, plus the 1/2 million people that work in the automotive sales and support industry who would otherwise be on on benefits.

Sorry, I just don’t buy it that motorists are subsidised. Oh, and your original figures are from April 2008, I think you will find that things have changed in the last 3 years.

Question for you TJ: If the second home owners from the city have priced the yocals out of the market, then who sold them the properties in the first place? Doutless at an absolutely eye-wateringly enormous profit

Look I’ve just sold my barn for £400,000 and retired to Spain. Muhahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, but… boo hoo, my children can no longer afford to buy property in the area they grew up in. I have no idea why

And they want sympathy? Believe it or not, property is quite expensive in cities too. Unless you want to live in a sh1thole. Nobody is bleating about it there though

I have a solution to this problem of not being able to afford to live where you work: Make council tax proportional to the distance between your home and your work, then use the number of homes you own as a multiplying factor, and use the same factor on stamp duty.

Can’t see them going for it though.

I am disabled and we seem to be forgotten about. I work 20 miles from where I live as there are no jobs in my town I am capable of doing due to my disability. I would love to be able to ride a bicycle or even a moped but am unable to. I must therefore use a car. I do not use it by choice as I am also unable to use buses etc, so when people bleet on about its the car user’s choice to use the car, think on. It is not always the case.
Don’t forget the emergency services also have to cough up for fuel, hence why our NI rises to pay for it. The peoblem in this country is too many benefits paid out crippling the economy. I am disabled and do not receive any benefits as I work full time.

Lancashire police have been told to fill their vehicles up with fuel as there are goingto be protests and blockades over the next few days.

The peoblem in this country is too many benefits paid out crippling the economy. I am disabled and do not receive any benefits as I work full time.

So what about all the disabled people who can work but can’t get a job (probably due to discrimination), or the ones that can’t work?

The problem isn’t benefits, but the fact that we as a society are consuming more resources than the planet can provide.

http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/50078/Collapse__part_1_/

Dazh: I just went to that website. Am on an iPad so couldn’t see the video but the comments seem to be full of conspiracy nutters…… 😆

The peoblem in this country is too many benefits paid out crippling the economy

Really I thought the economy went belly up due to the banking sector collapse and subsequent bailout but hey if you have some eveidence to show that it was benefit payments that caused this I am happy to have a discussion with you on this.
I dont see how the reduction in benefits would affect the supply and demand of the scare and undersupplied resource of oil. Again if you can put forward some sort of argument for this I would be delighted to engage with you.
Otherwise i will consider that to be complete tosh.

Yeah ignore the conspiracy types, the film is still worth watching 🙂

The local papers are stirring the mases into abject fear, of a total blockade tomorow, panic buying, more than a tenners worth at some garages.

A55, M53, M56, M60, AND M62 now targeted, for an even slower go slow sunday afternoon.

Tnhey want 23p off a litre of fuel, and i wonder which planet theyve just beamed down off if they think they have ay chance of getting it, were broke and need every penny…………

buzz-lightyear, I get what you’re saying and like the way you say it, but you are hugely subsidised as a car user. Vehicle excise duty and fuel tax come nowhere near to covering the cost of the construction and upkeep of roads. I hate the fact I have to pay “road tax” as a proportion of my income and V.A.T.

I would love to be able to ride a bicycle or even a moped but am unable to.

You are probably not doing yourself any favours by spending time on a forum full of cyclists then.

Or do you need to remind yourself how much you wish you could ride a bike ?

😕

Well a few minutes on the news, and quite a few cars involved and a lot of Police in vans, evrything very freindly though.