Frame building: anyone learnt? Done a course? Taught yourself?

Following my investigations into having a custom frame made, I decided I’d really quite like to learn how to do this myself, so I’m interested if anyone else has had the same idea, and how they went about learning. Looking at courses at The Bicycle Academy, and my wife is planning to go on holiday with a friend at some stage, so I’m ‘allowed’ an equivalent experience.

How did you go about learning, and what were your experiences? Any examples of what you’ve made would be great.

Thanks.

Bicycle academy can’t teach in Ti can they?

Won’t be Titanium; I wasn’t thinking that at all. Just would be nice to make something I could use, nothing fancy. But overall to learn how to do it. That’s the fun bit.

Ah fair enough, just wondered after your previous thread. Would love to do a bike academy course when I have the time.

Dave Yates is the one everyone seems to have gone on, and he’s been doing them since forever. The other thing is not to underestimate the cost of the kit, I looked into it a while ago and a ‘one of everything’ approach to kitting out the shed for framebuilding cost more than four or five decent frames. So either it’s a serious hobby, you can convince a few mates to club together to do it, or you have very deep pockets it’s a serious commitment just for one or two frame.

With TBA you don’t get to keep the frame do you, so unless your local and can make use of the workshops afterwards it’s an expensive week.

Anyway, I thought you were the toast of the framebuilding world and everyone wanted to work with you?

Dave yates lets you build your own bike (within reason)
Bike academy make you build a bike for Africa

If you’re interested in frame building then this lot give you complete flexibility as you build it at home in your shed/garage;

http://bamboobicycleclub.org/kits-for-bamboo-bike-building/%5B/url%5D

I did The Bicycle Academy Africa bike course. I really enjoyed it and would totally recommend it. They do other courses now so you can build a bike for yourself. I’ve ended up buying all the kit and building more frames at home. Annoyingly the website seems to crash if I try and post pictures. Currently awaiting some dropouts so I can get on with a new touring bike. The wait is killing me.

I think I saw your xc bike at last years SSUK. Green with the carbon seat tube. Beautiful bike!

“Anyway, I thought you were the toast of the framebuilding world and everyone wanted to work with you?”

No, apparently that’s Brant. 😉

“So either it’s a serious hobby, you can convince a few mates to club together to do it, or you have very deep pockets it’s a serious commitment just for one or two frame.”

I am considering helping set up a very talented lad I know to be able to create stuff in metal, and hopefully frames, so I’m currently thinking about a workshop space. He’d be able to teach basic welding, which could help to fund development. And my pockets aren’t that deep, but there’s funds available.

“Bike academy make you build a bike for Africa”

B.A do courses where you keep the bike; you’re talking about the ‘Classic’ frame building course I think. But that seems like fun anyway, and a very worthwhile use of time.

I did a welding evening class a couple of years ago with the intention of making a bike frame or two. I can’t remember now, but the course must have been run over 6 or 8 weeks, 2 or 3 hours per session.

Before the course began I looked out some plans for an ‘easy’ frame…

However, I learned early on that I’d be unlikely to learn the necessary skills within the timeframe of the course, let alone actually build a bike!

I ended up using the time to try out a few different techniques – brazing, gas welding, MIG, and TIG, not to mention plasma cutting! By the end of the course I still couldn’t satisfactorily join pieces of thick steel, although I had strained my eyes in the process.

The course taught me that it would take many hours of practice before I’d able to make a nice job of welding or brazing thin bicycle tubes. However, I suspect most people who enrol on a bike-building course have at least some metalwork and welding experience. If not, I’m not sure how it would be possible to build a frame during the course – perhaps the instructor would weld it.

Yeah that was mine, thanks Everyone.
https://flic.kr/p/okBsrJ

This is the last one I did:
http://www.benbroomfield.com/Work/Bespoked/Bespoked-Studio-2015/n-gdrrcr/i-xWrkZpB/A

“The course taught me that it would take many hours of practice before I’d able to make a nice job of welding or brazing thin bicycle tubes. However, I suspect most people who enrol on a bike-building course have at least some metalwork and welding experience.”

I was thinking about how it might be a good idea to learn how to weld stuff first. This lad can teach me, but we need somewhere for him to do this (his current employers are idiots who can’t understand just what a great idea it would be, to invest a bit of money in this, and what great potential dividends it could produce). My home workshop is full of very flammable wood.

Wow, shaggy; they are gorgeous bikes! How long have you been building your own? That’s a very good endorsement of the course!

When I looked at this ages ago, welding was the easy part, nice tube miters was the hard part. I gave up

Where abouts are you?
If in the south east These guys[/url] might be of use?
I’ve not used them myself but pretty sure one of the bike mags used them a few years ago and were quite pleased with the results.

Hi, I did the Downland frame course, it is intensive and pretty knackering really.
It is not a cheap way to get a frame, by the time you factor in the materials and accomodation, they even charged extra for silver braze!
The frame whilst rideable is certainly not a work of art. I was told that most first time builders usually end up cutting the first frame up.
I spent a lot of money to get a frame that would have been cheaper to get from shand.
By all means go on the course and learn how to file notches.

I’m not looking to produce anything amazing, more to learn the basics and gain a foundation from which to build. I appreciate it will take years of dedication and effort to get really good at it. I’d just like to be able to understand what’s involved, for the experience it will give me.

Then I can tell someone in China to build me exactly what I want. 😉

I would certainly consider The Bicycle Academy. Robin Mather and Ted James are teaching, tubesmiths the pair of them.

Any local colleges do anything interesting? I started off at North Glasgow College on an evening course with an ex shipyard welder called Willie Bell. Then just lots of practicing.

Cost of the kit can be very expensive or very cheap – at the minimum, you need a vice, hacksaw, some files and a way of sticking metal together. Oxyacetylene kit is cheap, but check the rules about where you’re allowed to have it. TIG is more expensive, but you won’t blow up the neighbourhood.

Another thumbsup for the Bicycle Academy. Thanks tang.

Bencooper; I intend to learn a bit about welding first; there are some local education places that run courses, and if we can get some workshop space, then the lad I know can teach me and others. I think he may have done the Dave Yates course. I can get hold of a never-ending supply of old steel frames to take apart and use as practice materials. There’s a very small possibility that we can buy out an existing bike recycling service too. So the longer view is to look at setting up something that can potentially offer training and creative workshop space, as well as eventually bespoke frame building. But it’s all in the ideas stage at the moment; what I have to do is gain experience and knowledge.

There’s a nice little American book on lugged frame building ‘Lugged Bicycle Frame Construction’ by Marc-Andre Chimonas. I’m in the process of acquiring a set of bottles and regulators etc. and will give it a go after lots of practice – did and engineering apprenticeship many years ago so was taught gas welding / brazing / soldering etc so hopefully the ‘feel’ will come back to me.

his current employers are idiots who can’t understand just what a great idea it would be, to invest a bit of money in this, and what great potential dividends it could produce

Or maybe they are realistic and don’t have money, time or resources to throw at someones hobby?

mark at nerve bikes now called reilly cycleworks does a course he is in brighton

“Or maybe they are realistic and don’t have money, time or resources to throw at someones hobby?”

No, they are actually idiots. They could be making some decent money from running welding courses, and the initial outlay would be relatively very small. They have perfectly suited yet redundant space they are currently paying for, which could have been used. And far from being ‘someone’s hobby’, it would ultimately be complementary to the business. But their loss could well be our gain.

Bicycle manufacturing used to be one of the things this country excelled at. Exploitation of cheap overseas labour may have helped kill it off, but it’s good to see a resurgence of the industry, even in a relatively very small way. And I’d love to be part of that. I might of course never be any good at it, but it would be nice to try!

MTBR frame builders forum is a very useful resource – a good smattering of (helpful) pros, and a load of guys doing what you want to do.

Velocipede Salon is also good. Though the willy waving on framebuilding forums makes this place look very warm and fluffy 😉

Thanks JonE and Ben. Will check those out.

Ben; how long have you been making bike frames?

Just been blasting my wife’s front triangle during lunchtime at work. That sounds very wrong…. I somehow doubt that this cross frame will be ready for the first race on Saturday 🙂

Self taught brazing, but did an Engineering apprenticeship years ago and also degree etc. Initially got permission at work to play in the fab shop when everyone had gone home. Now set up with a small fireproof shed, oxygen concentrator and propane at home. Not ideal, but it is better than trudging into work at weekend with jig etc.

Probably learnt most from searching MTBR Frame forum and photos on Steve Garro and Julie Racing Designs amongst others.

Very good guys at the BA. Probably at the stage where I’d really benefit from a 1 day brazing masterclass to unlearn some bad habits / learn a different perspective. But also quite like being 100% diy.

Ben; how long have you been making bike frames?

Almost 20 years I reckon.

Almost 20 years I reckon.

that means you’re still an amateur in bartyp’s eyes I expect 😉

o, they are actually idiots. They could be making some decent money from running welding courses,

Depends, I used to work in a bit more “hands on” engineering, bills for welding were done at £100 per inch (this wasn’t “seagull **** on carbon steel” though), tying up a welder and 3 stations doing a course for 2 people paying £1k a week would not be good business sense.

“Almost 20 years I reckon.”

Blimey! That’s quite an ‘apprenticeship’! Do you have any pictures of your work? Especially interested in more ‘creative’ or ‘arty’ stuff.

“tying up a welder and 3 stations doing a course for 2 people paying £1k a week would not be good business sense.
“

They could charge half that and still turn a useful profit, as part of a larger project. Plus other staff members would have the opportunity to learn skills too; the management fail to see the longer term goal though, sadly.

I assume Ben won’t mind me linking his FB to here.

Have a scroll down his timeline for lots of interesting engineering and some unusual frame builds.

https://www.facebook.com/KineticsGlasgow?fref=ts

“Just been blasting my wife’s front triangle during lunchtime at work”

Nice. She must be very happy!

“Very good guys at the BA”

I’m hearing some very positive noises about them from others too. Annoying that it’s a bit ‘out of the way’, but might be fun for a mini-holiday.

Front triangle is now all clean and shiny, although occasional bits of grit are still falling out of the tubes. Just been to the bike shop and bought her a Hope headset for these new-fangled 44mm head tubes / tapered steerers – that made her even happier.

Just lost half an hour on Ben’s FB page.

I first met Andrew from BA a few years ago and it has been great to watch it grow – really nice to catch up with their progress at each Bespoked gathering. If I ever pay for a course it will be there (even though it is opposite end of the country).

Blimey! That’s quite an ‘apprenticeship’! Do you have any pictures of your work? Especially interested in more ‘creative’ or ‘arty’ stuff.

The FB page has quite a bit, I also put pics on Flickr when I remember:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/cycleologist/

I’m pretty rubbish at marketing, though – keep thinking I should be more organised about showing things I’ve built.

do not under estimate how difficult or time consuming it is to make a frame or the hardware required.
How will you do decent mitres?
How will you bend tubing?
Jigging?
Alignment?
Safely Joining of thin wall tubing?
Thread chasing?
Reaming?

I love steel frames and have access and the skills to use a full machine shop including milling and lathes, waterjet and laser cutting, TIG and brazing equipment. I’m an engineer of 27years, have SolidWorks Premium 2015 licence but choose to buy my steel frames as I appreciate the skill, time and dedication people like Bencooper have in their craft.
Good luck OP you’ll need it.

They could charge half that and still turn a useful profit, as part of a larger project. Plus other staff members would have the opportunity to learn skills too; the management fail to see the longer term goal though, sadly.

They couldn’t, otherwise everyone would do it and Dave Yates would be driving a Ferrari.

I’m impressed by your enthusiasm, but I’d not trust someone who’s frame building experience was only to have built a frame on the Dave Yates course to build me a frame, let alone base a business around him relaying that information 2nd hand!

While frame building isn’t the black art many would have you believe, it’s a shed load more complex than you appear to think it is and the idea that a 52k business income is a sustainable business idea is amusing at best.