Are people really suggesting that we should execute a 15 year old child with mental problems? Amazing.

Is he really ill or is it a line of defence? If the former, lock him and try to help. Otherwise – no mercy IMO.

I want a reduction in crime via capital punishment for the most severe crimes

We have worked this out but can you give us some examples of where this has worked ?
There is no relationship betwewen the death penalty and murder or indeed crime rates. it actually seems to be less effective.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/deterrence-states-without-death-penalty-have-had-consistently-lower-murder-rates

Eighty-eight percent of the country’s top criminologists do not believe the death penalty acts as a deterrent to homicide

The removal of capital punishment from the Canadian Criminal Code in 1976 has not led to an increase in the murder rate in Canada. In fact, Statistics Canada reports that the murder rate has generally been declining since the mid-1970s. In 2006, the national murder rate in Canada was 1.85 homicides per 100,000 population, compared to the mid-1970s when it was around 3.0.

Perhaps if you know you will be killed if you are caught you are more likely to kill someone to escape ?

Stop trying to confuse matters with your sensible arguments and convincing statistics, SOMEONE NEEDS TO DIE!!!

I’ve been in to a lot of prisons, 40+ from Dispersals to YOIs.

None of them are holiday camps, some, Leyhill for example have less strict regimes but make no mistake you have no liberty and you certainly can’t get out for a ride in the Cotswolds.

I remember one story a governor told me at Thorncross in Warrington, about a lad who had been neglected all his life, who’s parents had ignored him, not cared for him and basically kicked him out at 15, the lad survived by stealing, food, then cars, then whatever he could, I don’t recall if there was any violence involved but eventually he was sent to the YOI.

Here they offered a ‘boot camp’, 3 months of getting up at 6am, education and discpline, you didn’t have to do it, but if you did then they guarenteed a job at the end, this lad struggled at first and eventually succeeded and completed the course.

The governor told me how much it meant to get a letter from the lad a couple of years later thanking him for helping him get a trade (think it was bricklaying, they could do decorating, plastering, motor mechanics and so on) and that he was now working, had a girlfriend and a flat.

I heard plenty more stories like this, it was inspirational to see the commitment the staff made to ensuring that those in their care were helped to make amends for their past by turning their lives around, I find it incredibly disrespectful to them when I read threads like this or read newspaper decrying attempts to rehabilitate.

We should always always always try to help each other, even if the crimes are heinous, if one or two can be helped to make a positive contribution, even if it is from behind bars, that must always be the first and favoured option.

As ususal with these threads, what the likes of the hang em and flog em brigade spectacularly fail to realise is that the current regime is not working, neither did capital or for that matter corporal punishment.

Simply put, a reasonable definition of insanity is to do something that doesn’t work, then repeat it incessantly expecting a different outcome. So how about we collectively MTFU in this area, and let the folks who actually handle this sh1t, have a proper run at dealing with the thing, with appropriate funding and resources, other than spouting utter bollocks all the time?

Nick

I agree with what you have said above (I too occassionally have to visit both young offender and high category prisons) but isn’t there a vast difference between this alleged crime and the relatively minor misdemeanours carried out in your example ?

Some acts are so inhuman that society should never again be placed at risk by allowing the perpetrator back into that society.

Simply put, a reasonable definition of insanity is to do something that doesn’t work, then repeat it incessantly expecting a different outcome.

Bit like TJ on this thread and many others 🙄

Some acts are so inhuman that society should never again be placed at risk by allowing the perpetrator back into that society.

By killing them?

And who should get to decide that? Dedicated, experienced and trained professionals, or some people who read about it on the internet?

That is a good case for rehabilitation. That is one good case. How many more convicted criminals have just learnt more criminal activities in jail. I believe that the moral fabric of society is breaking down due to the excessively lenient sentencing that is occuring. Too many times the media have publicised cases of crimes going un-punished or by using some great social experiment to try to prevent them commiting any more crime.
It hasn’t worked. Here’s an idea how about the victim or victims family help decide the punishment. That would appease all you looney lefty types that think the criminal have been done wrong by. For us who think that they should be suitably punished for trespassing against us will get our justice.
Or will that lead to more looney lefties getting killed because the criminal fraternity will learn whos best to attack and whos not!

That is one good case. How many more convicted criminals have just learnt more criminal activities in jail.

That is because they are not rehabilitated!

Here’s an idea how about the victim or victims family help decide the punishment.

And that really is a recipe for justice!

That would appease all you looney lefty types that think the criminal have been done wrong by.

And who has said that and where?

I simply am pragmatic on this. I want to see crime reduced. From much research worldwide it is clear that reducing the causes of criminal behaviour is the best way to do this. This means rehabilitation of the offenders and removal of inequalities in society along with other measures that the daily wail brigade decry.

It is simple – rehabilitation works, punitive punishments don’t.

Too many times have people based their opinions on the massively distorted picture provided by tabloid newspapers.

Research has shown that in fact sentencing is largely in line with what most people think it should be, but the same sample consistently thought that current sentencing was much more lenient than it really is. The papers only highlight cases where they consider an especially lenient sentence has been given.

Also, the fact is that the ONLY method of reducing re-offending is education and rehabilitation. The statistics are very clear – re-offending rates are still pretty high, but these programmes are the only thing that can be shown to make a significant difference. Reducing re-offending even by a very small amount actually saves the taxpayer a lot of money because of the costs involved in locking people up and processing them through the justice system.

But hey let’s just forget all that so we can satisfy some kind of base urge for revenge eh?

Too many times the media have publicised cases of crimes going un-punished or by using some great social experiment to try to prevent them commiting any more crime.

Can you pick out the key word in that sentence that points to utterly flawed logic?

Here’s an idea how about the victim or victims family help decide the punishment

If you are interested in justice, these are the last people who should be involved as they will, quite understanably, be interested in retribution rather than justice.

Dont know about all the comments above (and this might sound callous) but the lads only 15yrs. Which means we have another 4 decades or so of having to manage his care, pick up the pieces of subsequent offending etc. He’ll probably come into contact with hundreds of dedicated professionals throughout his life and he’ll be back in Manchester when hes released like many others like him at somepoint.

Sad all round really. Nothing tub-thumping on a handringing-mountain bike website you can do though.

By killing them?

That would certainly solve the rehabilitation aspect but was not what I said or advocated.

And who should get to decide that? Dedicated, experienced and trained professionals, or some people who read about it on the internet?

I was merely offering an opinion. As for the ‘dedicated, experienced and trained professionals’ – I frequently come into contact with those unfortunates who have been deemed fit to return to society by those same dedicated professionals and who, quite evidently, are not !

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,3948775,00.html

Hora fair point, Well made!

shands – Member
I believe that the moral fabric of society is breaking down due to the excessively lenient sentencing that is occuring.

There you go a brilliantly uninformed statement at a time when we have more people locked up and for longer than at any time in the history of the nation!

Too many times the media have publicised cases of crimes going un-punished or by using some great social experiment to try to prevent them commiting any more crime.

And again! The recidivism rate for conventional jail is in the high 80 to low 90 percent area, whilst the “Great social experiment” rate is the opposite.

It hasn’t worked. Here’s an idea how about the victim or victims family help decide the punishment. That would appease all you looney lefty types that think the criminal have been done wrong by. For us who think that they should be suitably punished for trespassing against us will get our justice.

What? The justice of putting the offender into a system that almost guarantees that they will reoffend?

Or will that lead to more looney lefties getting killed because the criminal fraternity will learn whos best to attack and whos not!

Loony? As I said, the definition of insanity amply demonstrated by Monsieur Shands. I thank you sir, I believe my case now stands as proven.

TJ – you are kidding with that entirely inappropriate/irrelevant link……..aren’t you ?

I like the way the hang em and flog em lot are just ignoring all the clear evidence about why it’s a good thing the justice system isn’t run by angry Sun readers.

Wunundred!

I have nothing to add, that hazzunt already been said by TJ, Grumm and other sane people.

I just feel really, really sad for that poor little innocent girl. 😥

This means rehabilitation of the offenders and removal of inequalities in society

I didn’t really want to get involved, as I don’t have an answer. I was wondering if TJ did, as all I’ve seen him do is argue against the opinions of others without providing an alternative. Then the above.
WTF does that mean? Nothing.

coming from the same person as “stupid unworkable suggestions without any thought or idea of reality.”

Some acts are so inhuman that society should never again be placed at risk by allowing the perpetrator back into that society.

I don’t agree that an ‘act so inhuman’ should automatically prevent someone from reentering society, how is this defined? What were the circumstances? If possible they should be allowed back and we should try to forgive them, not suggesting that this is ‘easy’.

The right thing to do must surely be to try to find a way that enables the purpetrator to lead a life that has a postive effect on themselves and others, in doing so we learn more about ourselves and humanity, if that’s from behind bars that should be because all the evidence supports that as the most sensible option, not because the baying masses desire it.

chewkw – Member

“Insane in the main brain”

It’s “membrane”. FWIW

to be fair

hes insane he’s got no brain

so he has an excuse 8)

Firing squad for scum like him, so what if he is mentally ill how and why is that an excuse. If ANYONE did that to my kid i would personally maim them.

PS TJ not a daily mail reader – just someone angry at an appalling crime, no punishment or rehabilitation is fitting for such an evil act. defend all you like but at the end of the day he is scum until proven innocent!

Just as a matter of interest, its also worth not shooting people like this so that we can learn from them and thereby perhaps avoid a repetition elsewhere.

I have a very simplistic view on things like this (Probably because I dont read any newspapers as I feel they’re all slanted to which ever notion that the editor, owner, etc want to put in the public domain). The view is if it was my child that had been murdered like this how would I react. I am sorry but some looney lefties would obviously think I am babaric. I d want retribution.
Again I go back to asking the victims and families of victims to be involved in sentencing. Those who wish to turn the other cheek can and those that want their view of justice can also be represented. Unless this of course goes against you ejits that want to protect all convicted criminals from any sense of responsibility for their actions. After all some of the very strange notion that nobody is responsible for their own actions it obviously has something to do with something or someone else.

Nick

The right thing to do must surely be to try to find a way that enables the purpetrator to lead a life that has a postive effect on themselves and others, in doing so we learn more about ourselves and humanity

All very worthy and in an ideal world that would be the correct solution.

However, bearing in mind that many ‘good’ people die on a daily basis due to a lack of funding or medical care, is it really an appropriate use of finite resources to attempt the rehabilitation of someone whose only contribution to society is likely to be contained in a psychiatric study ? I am not talking about this specific case as the full facts are not available, but generally for cases of this type.

G – I would be more inclined to agree with you were it not for the fact that thses cases are relatively rare and it is debatable whether any amount of analysis could prevent re-occurrence.

SO let me get this straight TJ is saying that crime rates down but G is saying we have more people locked up. I am obviously very stupid cause I can’t see how both can be true. Maybe you better decide which stats you want to spout to better define your points of view people.

Lies, damn lies and statistics someone once said!

Dezb.

It is clear that inequalities of opportunity are oneof the drivers of crime. In times of rising prosperity and decreasing inequality crime goes down. One way of reducing crime is to reduce inequalities of opportunity.

I am also a believer in restorative justice – as in the link I posted above – again proven to work in some cases Such things as those “graffitti artists” who were jailed. They should be made to paint public buildings – preferably in magnolia 🙂

Much crime is strongly linked to drugs. A more rational drugs policy taking it out of the judicial system into the healthcare and education systems would reduce crime. In some areas the majority of crime is drugs linked. this would also have the effect of freeing up police time to detect the other crime that is not drugs related.

Much tougher non custodial sentencing as well – re offending rates are much lower for non custodial sentencing. Again where appropriate. ie where there is no risk to the public.

There is a wealth of research on what works. I would like to follow this research. I like evidence based practice.

There is no one simple solution. Much of what works requires money – but money spent on rehabilitation = money saved in the consequences of crime. Reducing crime saves money.

There are general things such as I have outlined above. There are also more basic things for individuals. One thing is to intevene earlier in a criminals career.

I am purely pragmatic in all this. I claim no moral basis in any way. I simply want to see things that are proven to work used rather than the continuation of our failed policies.

the problem is the things that are proven to work do not play well with the “daily Wail” tendency ( a convenient shorthand)

I am obviously very stupid cause I can’t see how both can be true.

In order to satisfy the cretinous members of the public who lap up stories of the breakdown society, people are being sent to prison for crimes that would be better delt with without resorting to detention.

It’s really not a difficult concept to grasp 😉

Shands, because people are getting longer sentences or getting put in prison for things where previously they wouldn’t have done? It’s not that hard really.

Of course if you were a bit cleverer you might have suggested that this means that locking up lots of people works (but you’d still be wrong).

shands – Member

SO let me get this straight TJ is saying that crime rates down but G is saying we have more people locked up. I am obviously very stupid cause I can’t see how both can be true. Maybe you better decide which stats you want to spout to better define your points of view people.

Lies, damn lies and statistics someone once said!

Both are true. People are now locked up for longer than they used to be for the same crime and more people are locked up for crimes that did not attract custodial sentences in the past.

so although crime is down – we lock up more people for these crimes. Also detection rates are up.

simple

I have a very simplistic view on things like this …………… The view is if it was my child that had been murdered like this how would I react. I d want retribution.

a perfectly reasonable reaction – but not one to base sentencing policy on IMO

I truly hope that chewkw is a troll and I can claim my £5…

Very very sad for the poor child, perhaps the parents can except some responsibility for leaving their child in the care of another child, their choice of child minder was obviously poor.

What the teanage boy has done is beyound belief, he needs to be kept away from people he can hurt, however no one has the right to take a human life. Even a floored human being has the right to a fair trial.

Having said this i am not sure i could stop myself from taking matters into my own hands if i was the affected parent. Perhaps that would make me a bad person.

What utter drivel. Whats it like up on your fluffy white cloud!
Crime rates may be dropping due to the police not wanting to accept anything they cant solve. Personal experience of only three occasions were I have been trangressed against. 1st nobody was interested in my car being stolen. Had to go and look for it myself, found it and phoned the police. Still not interested, would not attend. Informed them that was taking the car back, if there was trouble would deal with it ourselves. Strangely enough responded within 5 minutes. The scroat that stole it owned up a year later when being done for something else. Aprox 35 crimes all in one hit. He served less time, police look like theyre doing a wonderful job, not.
2nd time someone rammed the front of my property with a van and drove off. Called the police out and had a knob of a sergent tell me it wasn’t a crime to damage someones property and drive away. Even when I insisted it must be criinal damage or leaving the scene of an accident. Strangely he got upset when I offered to come and slam my car into the front of his house if it wasn’t a crime!
Thirdly had trees(trees for christ sake) stolen from my property and all the cops did was laugh. Not a happy bear with the way that the law is represented in this lovely country of ours.
So if I am I bit pesimistic with our ability as a soceity to deal with the less than productive members you will please forgive me! Not that I give a damn what you actually think.
Well been fun, I do like having debates with TJ. Always has an opinion, usually that differs from mine. But usually has some other link to back his opinion up

Have fun children!

Having said this i am not sure i could stop myself from taking matters into my own hands if i was the affected parent. Perhaps that would make me a bad person

Pretty normal I would say. I’m damned sure I would want the guilty party to suffer a similar fate to the child but preferably more painful and protracted !

G – I would be more inclined to agree with you were it not for the fact that thses cases are relatively rare and it is debatable whether any amount of analysis could prevent re-occurrence.

Possibly right, but it would be a shame if we were at the tipping point of a trend and actually didn’t pick up on it, thus not acting and thus perpetuating it. I suspect if you look at things like the James Boulger case and one or two high profile others in the recent past you might well find that this sort of hard core crime carried out by minors is potentially more of an issue than you might think. .. . . I believe there is an ever growing list of stabbings for instance.

Also on the take them out and shoot them front, just take a look at the long list of miscarriages of justice going back to the Birmingham 6. Its very easy to pontificate, not so easy to carry out the sentence and even harder to go and apologise to the family when you find out that you’ve killed the wrong person judicially.

Shands – the crime stats that show crime reducing are nothing to do with the police, with “solved crime” or anything but interviews with real people about their real experiences of crime.