I just heard an announcement on the news about the most ridiculously ill-considered proposal to force the long term unemployed to do a month’s worth of community service which would include what they described as “menial tasks” – painting, decorating, building work, cutting grass. To be administered by local authorities.

Iain Duncan Smith’s “bright idea” has more holes than a colander! He was useless as Conservative party leader, he is still useless!

The long term unemployed have serious issues which need a tangible solution, not a vote winning “punishment”, doing something which the powers to be clearly regard as degrading.

It sickens me that many in society think of building work as menial. There are many highly skilled difficult trades, but the supercilious chattering classes who denigrate such difficult jobs wouldn’t know a day’s graft if it whacked them in the face, let alone how hard it would be to face the prospect of an unrelenting lifetime of health damaging, undervalued, under paid graft!

Painting for example is not easy. Many people think if you can hold a brush, you can paint – nonsense! Most people can’t and this includes a lot of tradesmen. If it wasn’t for the deep seated social hierarchy issues in the UK, if workers were shown some respect for doing difficult low paid jobs, we wouldn’t have this situation.

We now have deadlock with this problem because we have allowed a load of European immigrants to come and take on these tasks. I bet these people are disgusted with our attitude to them, but they’ll suffer it because the paltry sums they earn here go a very long way back where they come from. Most aren’t here to stay and I don’t blame them!

If you think about the practicalities of getting the long term unemployed working, they will need training and close supervision which will cost a lot of taxpayers’ money. If council’s are administering these schemes, you can be sure that they won’t make much money from selling these services (if any). Who would want to pay for this service anyway? It’s little more than a political stunt which will anger and alienate those finding it impossible to get a job. After a month, or two, or three, they will be back where they started.

What is needed is professional counselling and career development. Each individual needs to know their strengths and weaknesses and help in rebuilding their confidence. To find out what they realistically might be able to do for a job which would suit them and they would find bearable. They need a tangible route map out of the benefit trap they are in, which would involve getting retrained and/or qualified with people to mentor them and help them find work. There are enough workers sitting in jobcentres to do this, but I doubt if they have the skills, or the character for such challenging work. Getting claimants to sign their name once a fortnight is far easier! Do they do anything else?

If there weren’t such huge disparities in what people earned, those at the bottom of the ladder would feel they were in with a fighting chance of digging themselves out of the mire to live an adequately comfortable life. Whereas now, they are just looked down on as scum and will be struggling interminably, job or no job. They feel it’s a waste of time trying to get work as they will gain nothing from it and stand no chance of getting ahead when comparing themselves to those who are vastly more fortunate and privileged.

I conclude that the country needs a much more horizontal hierarchy, both financially and socially, but successive governments and banks have done much to exacerbate this problem. We have “sleepwalked” into unsustainable debt, living way beyond our means and have lost the value in many things. I can’t see the status quo changing, can you?

I don’t trust any politician, whatever their political persuasion. Their arrogance and incompetence knows no bounds. In light of this, our democratic system is a FAIL!

Completely agree.

+1

Bloody hell; you feeling ok, Spongebob?? 😯

Elfinsafety – Member

Bloody hell; you feeling ok, Spongebob??

Indeed.

As well as what you say of course they need jobs to do as well.

Bloody hell; you feeling ok, Spongebob??

Perfectly thanks Elfinsafety! You are perhaps now beginning to see i’m not the narrow minded **** you often think and suggest I am.

Every situation has two sides!

The range of opinion within a political party goes from moderate to fanatical and there is always internal disagreement and division. These people can’t help themselves because they are “all ego”!

Every party has it’s embarrassments, but then democracy is all about free speech isn’t it? A political party is a continually evolving creature.

I therefore think that aligning one’s self with a political party and it’s ideals is possibly the most stupid thing one can do!

Life is a learning curve!

Painting well may be a professional trade, but any foo can slap some paint on a wall to, say, cover up some graffiti. Given that it’s the great unwashed that’s defacing the place to start with, how is covering up their own mess not a good idea? Grass cutting, litter picking, tidying up the community, this is bad?

Maybe it’s an environment thing. Perhaps in middle-class suburbia what’s required is skilled work by the poor unfortunate people who are desperate to work and can’t. Round here though, where urban decay is rife and a percentage of workshy scumbags simply don’t want a job and are happy to spend their days watching Jeremy Kyle and reproducing, I’d hazard that that’s not always the case.

Doesn’t the concept basically mean they would rather the unemployed got money for doing something than nothing? I’m not really sure that’s a bad idea?

it’s a pointless headline grabber for the mail/express brigade. it will be expensive and complicated to run. it will achieve little actual public good. oh, and there’s no jobs for all these hundreds of thousands of feckless individuals to get in the end anyway.

oh, and by the way, notice how no one ever puts a number on the amount of people who are allegedly getting benefits without ever trying to get a job? that’s because no one has ever tried to find out how many there are. it’s easier to just blame them all for not trying

oh, and also, it’s funny how the rich need carrots to get them to work, while the poor need sticks…

David Cameron is going to make it harder to claim benefits.From tomorrow the forms will only be available in English

happy to spend their days watching Jeremy Kyle and reproducing, I’d hazard that that’s not always the case.

Or appearing on Jeremy Kyle

There is a lot of work that could be done by feckless wasters ,clearing ponds(about right for pond life) path and scrub clearance ,painting walls ,litter picking the list is endless and could help ease the burden on those of us who pay tax.It should be done properly with training to enhance their ability to get proper employment though.

David Cameron is going to make it harder to claim benefits.From tomorrow the forms will only be available in English

Ah, that’s more like it. I was starting to get a bit worried, with Spongebob’s defection! 😀

oh, and also, it’s funny how the rich need carrots to get them to work, while the poor need sticks…

And the rich also get carrots not to work i.e. extended garden leave and huge bonuses when they leave a large corporation in a worse state than before they arrived!

If you are bottom of the pile and do a bad job, you are out the door straight away and without a penny.

Conversely, if you are top of the pile you will be rewarded with millions of pounds in severance and be allowed to go and wreek havoc at huge expense to another business. And so the cycle of expensive damage perpetuates.

I used to work out in a gym where a couple of guys would do anything other than lose their benefits – one worked cash in hand the other just didn’t work. I think the above scheme might have an impact on them – probably just pi55 them off really.

Given that it’s the great unwashed that’s defacing the place to start with, how is covering up their own mess not a good idea?

Banksy’s quite a wealthy man now, actually…

Oh come, all ye vengeful,
Blinkered and self-righteous,
Oh come, ye oh come ye
To vent all your bile.

Once in Royal Tunbridge Wells
Stood an outraged disgusted man.

Surely the “long term unemployed” includes people who want work and can’t get it. After all, we’re always being told that the number of unemployed is going to rise under the new government. In that case, getting involved in something like this would help develop new skills and might make them more attractive to employers – when jobs become available.

David Cameron is going to make it harder to claim benefits.From tomorrow the forms will only be available in English

So why is this a bad thing? Should we allow parallel communities to develop or try to force integration on incomers? If you come to the UK should you not try and adapt to what exists rather than try and create a new version of where you have come from.

I know the UK is a mongrel country that has developed from immigration, but each wave has in time been incorporated into the whole and not left within a walled enclave. I would say that language is one of the tools to enable integration.

I think that’s a joke, mrmo.

Given that it’s the great unwashed that’s defacing the place to start with, how is covering up their own mess not a good idea? Grass cutting, litter picking, tidying up the community, this is bad?

It is bad! It places benefit claimants in the same category as criminals who are serving community service orders. That’s what’s fundamentally wrong with the idea! It’s in effect a punishment intended to show everyone who’s boss, to make working people feel better about the high taxes they have to pay to support these people who are an unecessary burden on society. An uncomfortable humiliation for benefit claimants – a stick!

The government aren’t giving benefit claimants genuine support to find a job and this is what i object to. This is what is wrong with Jobcentre Plus. They have thousands of jobs on their books, but are not a recruitment service!? Er, WHY NOT?? Why do they even exist???? If one of the numbskulls responsible for the nation’s Jobcentres had thought about it, he/she would have seen an opportunity to earn a commission for each person who is placed in one of these jobs! But hey, that would be far too commercial wouldn’t it? Far too right wing! They wouldn’t want to mitigate their cost to the public purse now would they, or perhaps making money goes against their political ideals!?

What is needed is a tangible solution to end benefit culture. Spending money on doing this would be far better than this wasteful stunt.

And no Elfinsafety, your perception that I have defected is wrong. I am merely pointing out that i have the capacity to see the bigger picture and that i don’t blindly follow political ideals to the detriment of common sense, fair play and the greater good of our country. I am big enough to admit nobody is perfect and sometimes i’m wrong. Maybe you should try the same sometime!

I do agree that those who simply refuse to do anything to help themselves need a rocket up their backsides, but only after they have been given a fighting chance!

The proliferation of a work shy, lazy, good-for-nothing underclass stereotype is very worrying. But i guess it makes it easier when pandering to voters. How about the government tries to solve the myriad underlying issues that cause high levels of unemployment amongst particular groups in particular areas.

Expect private sector companies to administer this workfare approach as seen in the US.

From the news nibbles of STW….

An army of unemployed people in south Wales is helping to keep mountain bikes on the move along the trails in Afan Forest Park. In a real community effort, jobless men and women are carrying out essential maintenance work on the Forestry Commission Wales bike trails which attract thousands of visitors and bring a much-needed economic boost to the area. It’s hoped their work will equip the team with new skills and help them in their search for a job. Annie Harding, Skills and Training Unit Manager, said, “This is an excellent opportunity for our learners to gain recognised land-based qualifications in a real working environment whilst making a huge contribution to the local community.”

So why is this a bad thing? Should we allow parallel communities to develop or try to force integration on incomers? If you come to the UK should you not try and adapt to what exists rather than try and create a new version of where you have come from

You listening Capello and Tevez?

Mrmo; it’s not actually true, Edric is just trying to be inflamatory.

Under current UK Equal Opportunities legislation, each British citizen is entitled to have information provided by the Government or local authority, to be presented in a form which they can understand, be it another language such as Welsh, and in Braile and in audio form for the blind. In areas with large numbers of people who speak other languages, the local authority is responsible for providing such information as and when it is required. This service will be financed through Council Tax, which of course will be paid by many of those people who speak other languages…

Whilst of course people should be encouraged to learn English, they cannot be forced, and for some it may be far more difficult than for others. People living in communities which are heavily populated by those speaking other languages will make slower progress learning English.

I am big enough to admit nobody is perfect and sometimes i’m wrong. Maybe you should try the same sometime!

I would, but I’m never actually wrong, though. 😕

Except for one time, a good while ago, but I’d not been well. I did accept that I’d been wrong, and admit this. Was just the once. I won’t let it happen again. 😳

Good to see you presenting a well thought out fair-minded point of view, Spongebob. Fair play to you.

” He who does not work neither shall he eat” Vladimir Ilyich Lenin 1917 and I believe he stole it from the bible.

Given that all the grass gets already gets cut and graffiti is already cleaned up etc etc etc, who is going to be losing their job to provide the workload for the dole dodgers?

You are.

Sounds a bit like slave labour to me.

Also, how are people meant to seek a job if they are being forced to work?

Mrmo; it’s not actually true, Edric is just trying to be inflamatory.

Sorry, it was a joke I received by text yesterday!

Haven’t read the post fully but I cant see what’s wrong with making people do say 10 hours of labour within the community each week, in order to qualify for jobs seekers allowance

Its the “or else” that is the issue. This sort of idea could be useful if it has a carrot. £40 a week on top of your dole for working in community projects? Provides real jobs for tradesmen / foremen / supervisors as well and could do a lot of good.

it’s a pointless headline grabber for the mail/express brigade.

It’s actually a very clever ploy imo.

The Tories have to deal with the awkward little problem that unemployment is set to go up dramatically as direct result of their economic policies. What better solution than to blame the unemployed for that ?

As people see gangs of unemployed doing ‘community service’ (a punishment normally dished out to anti-social individuals) such as picking up litter etc, some people at least, will see the unemployed as lazy anti-social individuals who deserve to be treated with contempt.

It will shift the blame away from the government and onto the unemployed, despite the fact that unemployment levels go up and down according to the state of the economy, and have nothing whatsoever to do with changing levels of “laziness”.

Many of course will not be taken in by this cynical ploy. But there are enough people who are incapable of thinking for themselves, like Edric 64, to make it worthwhile. And of course it has the added attraction of getting work done for barely subsistence wages well below the legal minimum.

It will shift the blame away from the government and onto the unemployed

Substitute unemployed for general population and you’ve understood the ‘Big Society’ concept.

Dave created the ‘Big Society’. He’s done that for ‘us’. Beautifully it is ‘us’, it is society and not government, that will be the reason that it wasn’t a success.

Given that all the grass gets already gets cut and graffiti is already cleaned up etc etc etc, who is going to be losing their job to provide the workload for the dole dodgers?

Plenty of places where it doesn’t happen, and usually mainly in the places where there’s plenty of jobless.

Personally I have no problem enforcing work for benefits, however I see it being hard to enforce. It doesn’t have to be exacting work – there’s plenty of jobs like painting coucil railings, clearing ponds, etc etc that can be done by anyone with virtually no skills. While I can see the point the OP was trying to make, I wonder what world he lives in.

Those finding it hard to get a job are not likely to be angered by a scheme that means people don’t get money for nothing while having never paid in. I’m not sure where people are seeing the contrary, but most of the people on benefits and non-workers currently have newer cars, bigger TVs and nicer toys than I do, and spend half the day in the pub. I don’t know how they play the system so well, but they do, and I’m paying for them to be sat at home while I work 12 hour days. If someone CAN work for their benefits, they should. There are hundreds of people out there with sufficient skills to do the more basic jobs in life, and plenty of extra people could be “employed” to do stuff like litter picking (which is already done, but limited due to costs) to keep the place looking nicer and operating better – and so they should.

If you live in a society, not earning your keep and accepting hand-outs should not be an option. Be that through learning new skills/trades for later use or manual labour, I don’t care, but be a producting member of society, don’t expect others to look after you.

Those skilled, put out of work now by the financial probles could be employed by the state to teach those who normally refuse to work. And there are people who REFUSE to work. I don’t blame them, they can sit about and do nothing but fill in a few forms and do the occasional interview, push out a few kids and be paid for it. The only question is how to determine who’s a sponger and who’s a victim so as not to upset the rather sensitive souls who can’t see the greater reasoning.

I was in favour of similar things to this years ago ,such as bringing back the workhouse to get the homeless off the streets.Bed and board and medical help in return for work in the community .Managed the right way it may actually get people trained and fit for the workplace.

It places benefit claimants in the same category as criminals

Are those who don’twork because they cannot be bothered,criminals? Ater all they are defrauing benefits if they aren’t trying to seek gainful employment.

Many valid points on here.

Surely though… as soon as these people are ‘working’ for their benefits then they should, at the very least, be being given the minimum wage for the jobs they are doing? Or are we classifying a whole load of manual work as not being worthy of the minimum wage?

Under a political ideology that believes in a smaller state, how long before the ‘unemployed’ under this system are being directed in their duties by private contractors?

Personally I have no problem enforcing work for benefits

Course not, unless it’s you being forced…

If you lost your job, would you have ‘no problem’ in being forced to do shitty jobs? For an indefinite period, perhaps several months even years? For **** all extra? Would you bollocks. So stop talking about things which don’t affect you, in such an arrogant manner. Start, instead, to put yourself in the place of someone it might. That way, you might gain a wider and more informed view of things.

We have something called a Minimum Wage. If people have to work, then pay them the minimum wage. Otherwise it makes a mockery of that ’employment right’.

The Community Service system is largely a joke, and actually produces **** all of any real worth. I’ve known several people who’ve done it, and none of them have done more than a third of their ‘sentence’ anyway. Usually involves shitty tasks like clearing up weeds and rubbish. Essential, but if you apply that to people looking for work, how on Earth are they sposed to gain self-respect doing something that criminals are forced to?

Where I live, there is a lot of unemployment, yet loads of jobs. Thing is, many ‘locals’ won’t get the jobs, because the local employers tend to favour people from ‘nicer’ areas, or places like Canada, France, Germany, the USA, etc. If the employers were forced to have to employ the bulk of there workforce from the area they are based in, and provide training, then this situation wouldn’t be nearly as bad. But local education has been slashed over the last decade, leaving very little in the way of adult training and education. Leading to a poorly skilled and undereducated population who are then forced to have to pay massive premiums for accommodation and watch ‘outsiders’ waltz past flaunting their wealth. Wonderful.

Britain needs to start **** investing in it’s own people again. Look at getting people skilled, educated and trained so that they can empower themselves instead of relying on state intervention.

But that would mean we’d have to raise taxes for a while….

As you were. Nowt to see here, move along.