If you drove from Lands End to John O Groats (874 miles) at 80 mph it'd take ~11 hours. If you did it at 70 it'd take ~12.5 hours. That's a 1.5 hour saving. There is no point to this post. Thanks.
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**** BMW drivers............
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Posted 2 years ago #
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If you have to slow from 70 to 60 mph for an hour it cost you about 8 1/2 minutes.
8.5 minutes I might need for some reason, and it's not your right to judge whether I need it, but that's by the by.
It's unlikely you would have to sit behind a driver for more than 5 minutes before they became aware of you.Often they're aware of you, but they refuse to move. That's fine, I'll pass on the inside if you insist on pointlessly sitting in the outside.
Total time cost is less than a minute, which I am sure you could make up with your superior driving skills.
Why, thank you. I could, but it would generally mean I have to drive like an idiot to do so, rather than safely.
The roads are for everyone - from young heroes with razor sharp reactions, ancient grannies doddering off to visit family, harassed mothers with a car full of screamers, and reps in a hurry. If you can't allow for the lowest common denominator in these situations maybe it's time to take a road skills course.No, the roads (or particularly motorways) are for people who have sufficient skills and an acceptable level of performance, as certified by a test/license procedure. The outside/middle lane hoggers would fail that test (if only it included motorways!) for not returning to the left after passing. They, therefore, either force the whole network to their speed like a rolling roadblock, or people pass them on the inside.
BTW what do you do when you get stuck behind a cyclist on a narrow road?
I wait til I can pass, though I'd rarely (never if I can help it) take a road that was too narrow to pass a cyclist anyway. How does meeting a single slow vehicle on a single-track road related to outside lane hoggers on a motorway, exactly?Coffeeking - no they are not vast gains on motorways and dual carriageways. A few minutes in the hour - you don't spend enough time going faster to make a significant difference. Hence my use of 60 and 70 mph in the sums. I have proven this before and there are many examples of it. Because you constantly accelerate and decelerate to and from the higher speeds you spend little time at the higher speeds and as in the sums I did above it makes a very small difference.
Try it on your commute. Same time of day drive like a cock one day and in a smooth cruise the next and compare. It will be less than 5 mins in the hour difference even on a motorway
If you get caught out by lights and people driving slowly, hence stuck at 30-40 in 60s and stopped for approximately 20% of the time on an otherwise 60mph road journey, it makes no significant difference? I'm not sure how you've proved that? Having completed the same 20 mile commute for 9 years, some days driving quick, some slow, some in rush hour, some not depending on "shift", I'm fairly able to make the judgement that I could shave over 15 minutes off my 1 hr commute time just by being a little more assertive with my driving, rather than dallying along like half the morning folk. 25%. Thats a fairly hefty difference. But your milage seems to vary from mine.
Posted 2 years ago # -
How come the French can get motorway driving right, and we fail so badly?
Someone praising French driving? I've seen it all now!
Btw the reason French motorways are so much better is that the population density is about half ours, and you have to pay to use the motorways so their upkeep is assured and they get a lot less traffic.
Driving from Cardiff to London at 80 saves about 11 mins from a 2 hour journey over driving at 70.
Driving as fast as you possibly can though does get you places quickly. A mate of mine had to drop me off at the airport after a Polaris, and we basically forgot that I had a flight to catch so ended up terribly late. He basically floored it in his 2l non turbo Subaru, and did it in about 2 hours something from the Western lakes. To be honest I'd rather have missed my flight than risk him lose his license but he seemed game.
EDIT: We desperately need motorway driving skills on our driving test. Even if it's a simualtor for peopel who cant' get to motorways.
Posted 2 years ago # -
They're flashing you, probably, because you're sat in a lane when you could be over one lane. It doesnt matter what speed they're doing, or what speed you're doing, if you're in a lane when you should be in the one to the left, you're in the wrong
I do obey lane discipline and have had it happen numerous times when overtaking folk (how come more people seem to sit at around 60 in the middle lane these days??).
Posted 2 years ago # -
Try it on your commute. Same time of day drive like a cock one day and in a smooth cruise the next and compare. It will be less than 5 mins in the hour difference even on a motorway.
Well I can certainly save 2-3 minutes by overtaking people on my ~10 minute commute. Of course as I said above it all depends whether you describe all overtaking (according to the rules of the HC) as driving like a c*ck - though I was assuming that a smooth cruise excluded dropping a cog and flooring it.Posted 2 years ago # -
coffeeking - Member
....the roads (or particularly motorways) are for people who have sufficient skills and an acceptable level of performance, as certified by a test/license procedure...
No matter what you think of them other drivers have passed that test.There is a wide variance in skills etc. If you can't accept that maybe you shouldn't be on the road. A race track maybe.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Flashing him is not friendly
i agree, im sure your a nice chap and all ;), but if you pulled up behind me and flashed your lights, sadly i would think what a knob.
i don't hog the outside lane though, its scary in a 1.4 9 year old fiesta
Posted 2 years ago # -
No matter what you think of them other drivers have passed that test.
Many of them wouldn't pass it if taken again though, and I'd suggest a majority wouldn't pass if they were assessed on their day to day driving (in the interests of fairness I'd probably fail that!)Posted 2 years ago # -
TJ i think you are enjoying calling me a cock today, you sure you dont drive a beemer!!!
so what if i got upto 100mph for all of a second with clear roads in front of me(apart from mr bmw) ive been driving for over 15 years now and havent got any points thank you.
ive also done a few track days and would like to think i know how to handle a car , all of which is beside the point.
so today you think that mr beemer is ok to sit at 60 in the outside lane causing all the traffic behind to build up and that i should of just dropped into the middle lane and gone slower so i dont undertake mr amazing sat in the outside lane............
get a grip man it doesnt happen like that in real life!!!
EDIT monkey boy i flashed him once at a safe distance so not to scare him after i had followed him for quite a while
Posted 2 years ago # -
No I don't think the beemer did the right thing at all - but neither did you. I said you were driving like a cock - not that you are one. a subtle but important difference.
Yes you should have dropped into the middle lane and slowed behind mr BMW supercock. thats the safe thing to do. It would have cost you a few seconds at most if anything.
Posted 2 years ago # -
on the continent although they drive up your arse and at stupid speeds, most drivers do not hog the middle and outer lanes
Somebody who's never driven in The Netherlands then? The Germans even comment about how they come up behind a middle-laner and it'll have yellow number plates.
As to driving fast doesn't get you there quicker, thats bollocks.
My house to my folks is 350 miles. If I never exceeed the speed limit it will take me a minimum of 7 hours, often longer (70 mph for 250 miles and 60 mph for 100 miles plus time sat in queues plus eating/resting time). But when I floor it with just myself in the car at a quiet time, I've managed it in 4 hours without stopping.
Or - I regularly use to travel from south of Leeds to north of Newcastle, by driving quick I could commute it rather than stay-over - result, wife happy.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Renton,
Just a thought, if say, the Clio had been a Police car, would you have altered the way you would have dealt with the BMW?
Not trying to have a go, just curious.
Posted 2 years ago # -
ski ....
no i wouldnt , hopefully the cooper would have seen what was occuring and pull the beemer driver over for obstructing the traffic, incorrect lane discipline etc etc
Posted 2 years ago # -
Someone praising French driving? I've seen it all now!
Ditto.
I've driven abroad quite a lot and the standard of driving is no better.
I recall driving from Munich into Austria on a skiing holiday. The density of traffic was very high and the number of accidents and ridiculous examples of speeding, tailgating etc was outrageous, far worse than anything I have seen even in rush hour on the M6 or M25!Posted 2 years ago # -
TandemJeremy - Member
No I don't think the beemer did the right thing at all - but neither did you. I said you were driving like a cock - not that you are one. a subtle but important difference.Yes you should have dropped into the middle lane and slowed behind mr BMW supercock. thats the safe thing to do. It would have cost you a few seconds at most if anything.
How would it have cost only a few seconds to go from 60 down to 55 and stay at that speed as the car isn't changing lane raher than the 70 that he is allowed to do.
It is agains the law to drive in the incorrect lane of a dual carrigeway/motorway.
Over a very short journey (distance wise) then a high speed save you very little. But if i was to drive from my house to my mother inlaws at 60 then rather than the 11 odd hours it takes at 80 it would take a hell of a lot longer. (80 is legal as we are talking continetal europe).Posted 2 years ago # -
I am getting a BMW as a Company Car in 3 weeks time. Think i will stick to trail centres
Posted 2 years ago # -
True renton
Funny how as soon as you see a police car on the motorway, car indicators seem to suddenly start working, spaces between cars increase and speeds are reduced
I had a motorway accident a few years back in which I was very lucky not to get hurt badly from and it changed my driving style dramatically.
Still remember the police office who dealt with me at the scene, saying an off the cuff remark, "I know you weren't speeding as you are still breathing!"
That had a big impact on me.
Now I am the sad person sat in the inside lane following whatever at a safe distance
Posted 2 years ago # -
Funny how as soon as you see a police car on the motorway ... and speeds are reduced
Yeah, to 65mph. Muppets.Posted 2 years ago # -
I can't quite believe this has managed to go on for so long, but it is quite amusing.....
You CAN undertake; unless you are doing it in a stupid manner you will not get pulled for it.
So, how is the act of undertaking 'driving like a c0ck'?As for the whole 'hardly makes a difference in time' arguement - that's a load of old toot.
A mate of mine I go riding with generally drives faster than I do. We have on several occasions left work at the same time (we used to work at the same place) and off he'd go at a much faster speed than me. I think it's about a 35mile drive to the car park we'd leave the cars at. By the time I had arrived, he'd already have his bike out of the car, lights fitted, other kit out and would be sat there (or getting changed). He would get there approx. 7-10 mins quicker than me over a 35 mile drive.Also on the way home it is a 60 mile journey, I know that if I am not in a rush it takes me about 1hr 25mins. If I am going hell for leather to get home, I have managed it in 1hr 9mins. Which means I can get to the fish & chip shop, buy my dinner, get it home, serve it up & have eaten half of it in the time it takes to just get home had I been driving 'normally'.
As for the outrage of cyclists daring to discuss the matter of undertaking......erm......what has that got to do with anything? Undertaking a slow moving car sat in the outside lane implies nothing about how I would handle driving situations near a cyclist.
I must have undertaken hundreds of cars and have never even come close to having an incident.
Keep meaning to say as well & forgetting that if you learn advanced driving techniques (AIM stuff) there are times when you are positively encouraged to flash your lights to signal your presence - like overtaking on a single carriageway road.Posted 2 years ago # -
He would get there approx. 7-10 mins quicker than me over a 35 mile drive.
...and would then have to wait for you to kit up anyway.
So all that extra fuel burnt, stress, anger, rage, pent up sexual angst, furious masturbatory activity etc etc, & not forgetting the undertaking, it was all for nothing.
Posted 2 years ago # -
True - but he does get to whinge at me for being so slow & what he does with this time is irrelevant in the context of this rather heated debate.
Now stop being picky, this is a serious discussion
Posted 2 years ago # -
will undoubtably be because you flashed him, if you flashed me in a "let me past mortal" stylee, i wouldnt move over for you either, and ide more likely boot it if you went to undertake.
or if you were on a motor bike, indicate left as soon as you went for the indicate (as that tends to cause brown leathers)
i wouldnt have been doing 60 though, but stop being an impatient tool?
were you in an audi?
FYI, "european" for "i wish to be going faster than you but you are in my way" is to put your right (or in thier case left) indicator on.
and please turn your foglights/drls off (this includes Volvos, they are not fixed on at all, rtfm)
Posted 2 years ago # -
if you flashed me in a "let me past mortal" stylee, i wouldnt move over for you either, and ide more likely boot it if you went to undertake.
Having admitted to two undesirable driving traits, would you also admit to finding yourself in a position where you were in the right lane of a motorway with the lane on your left empty such that you could move over?Posted 2 years ago # -
I'm not reading all that!
Someone sumarise.
Oh and from the very first thread - why didn't you judge speed up and nudge him with your bumper? Bet he would have moved then
Posted 2 years ago # -
Olly - Member
and please turn your foglights/drls off (this includes Volvos, they are not fixed on at all, rtfm)
Mine are unless i pay volvo a lot of money to turn them off. I can even scan and post the bit in the FM if you want.
Posted 2 years ago # -
From the highway code - note the wording is different to how it used to be
# only overtake on the left if the vehicle in front is signalling to turn right, and there is room to do so
# stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may pass on the leftPosted 2 years ago # -
Do you think people driving similar levels of cars to BMW (eg Mercedes, Audi, Lexus, Porsche) also complain about "BMW drivers" constantly?
Smacks of envy imo.
(ps I don't even drive, let alone own a BMW)
Posted 2 years ago # -
Keep meaning to say as well & forgetting that if you learn advanced driving techniques (AIM stuff) there are times when you are positively encouraged to flash your lights to signal your presence - like overtaking on a single carriageway road.
What is this "AIM" to which you refer? ;-)?
Yes, the IAM encourage use of headlights, for one purpose and one purpose ONLY, as the Highway Code says, to alert someone to your presence, that does not include (also as the Highway Code says) intimidating other drivers by trying to tell someone "I'm behind you and you should move over".
Posted 2 years ago # -
that does not include (also as the Highway Code says) intimidating other drivers by trying to tell someone "I'm behind you and you should move over".
Though if they continue to sit there with an empty left lane after the first time you've flashed to say "I am here", the only logical conclusion is that they didn't notice the first time, so it's perfectly reasonable to try and help them notice you again. What exactly is the difference between flashing to alert somebody of your presence and flashing to intimidate them, and how do you tell one from the other? Is there some secret code?Posted 2 years ago # -
Its a real shame that Top Gear don't find some way of making good driving techniques fashionable.
Posted 2 years ago # -
What exactly is the difference between flashing to alert somebody of your presence and flashing to intimidate them, and how do you tell one from the other? Is there some secret code?
No 'secret code'
it comes down to the 'reasonableness' test, as set out in section 3 Road Traffic Act 1988."when the driving falls below the standard expected of a reasonable, prudent and careful driver in all circumstances of the case"
That 'test' is an objective one there is no 'exact' definition. Failing to observe the Highway Code (the basic rules of the road) is not an offence in itself but may constitute evidence of careless or dangerous driving.
Posted 2 years ago # -
So take a couple of examples:
I'm sat in Lane 1 in an umarked car doing 56 with the heavies, one of which has moved out to Lane 2 to overtake a slower moving vehicle.
Traffic is reasonably light, car in Lane 3 is overtaking within speed limit. I see car approaching in Lane 3 exceeding speed limit, he closes on the car ahead of him and is forced to brake, he continues to close until he is only feet off the bumper, continuing to flash his headlights.
That's intimidation. He would get a pull, words of advice and dependant upon attitude and other checks possibly a FPN, possibly a summons even dependant upon aggrivating factors (wet road, weather conditions etc).
Same situation but Lane 2 is clear, vehicle is cruising in Lane 3 at below 70, failing to keep to the left as per HC (Rule 265) vehicle approaching doing 70 in Lane 3 gives one long (4-5 second) flash to alert driver in Lane 3 who see's him in his mirror and moves to Lane 2.
If he doesn't move to Lane 2? Hang back, leaving at least two seconds, more in the wet. Look at the manner of driving, can you see them looking in their mirror? Are they being deliberately obstructive or have they not seen you? If the latter, try another long head lamp flash. If still don't move, if for some reason they are being deliberately obstructive, DON'T rise to the challenge, rise above it. Move into Lane 2 yourself perhaps, hang back and wait for them to move over.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Traffic is reasonably light, car in Lane 3 is overtaking within speed limit. I see car approaching in Lane 3 exceeding speed limit, he closes on the car ahead of him and is forced to brake, he continues to close until he is only feet off the bumper, continuing to flash his headlights.
That's intimidation.
Right, and you'd correctly pull them not because of the flashing but because of their driving. Even had they not flashed you'd still pull them. Th flashing is a complete red herring.Got a better example?
Posted 2 years ago # -
I take it you are a rozzer then analogue andy?
Is undertaking justified then?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Renton - have to admit over the last 25+ years of driving motorbikes and cars that I have undertook more than once, but it does lead to the situation you found yourself in more often than is acceptable. So now I'm older and wiser I dont do it anymore and thats from experience, better to bide your time.
I will also share with you a true story which happened to me about one year ago.
I was driving south on the M74 a night on a Sunday with all the family on board (in a BMW saloon btw!), the motorway was very empty as it was late evening. There was a large pick up truck with a crew cab cruising down the outside lane at about 60mph. After a while I gave him a polite short single flash to remind him of correct procedure to pull over to inside lane.
He immediately rammed on his brakes and whilst swerving all over the road he eventually stopped in the middle of the two lane motorway on a sweeping right hand turn!! I am now stopped behind him after an emergency stop on a turn, on a motorway, at night, with my wife and kids in the car. He then engages reverse and the window at the back starts to wind down. There was enough space between him and the crash barrier for me to get out of a potentially hostile and dangerous situation, which I did instantly.
All that from a "friendly" flash, and no speeding or tailgaiting..very scary. I didnt have time to get his number needless to say.
Its not worth it.
I have since changed what was a inconspicous dark blue beemer to a bright red one (bought it for the diesel engine not the colour) with tinted windows and its very noticeable how much people cut you up just because of the car.
Posted 2 years ago #
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