Shermer I think this story is a prime example of one planted by Brown to suit his own agenda.

Mark Hughes report on Kubica…

“His performance in the Hungaroring test in the current Renault, whilst good, still left question marks about his fitness level, evident in an inconsistency during the long runs. His ultimate speed, on the other hand, was considered highly impressive.

They don’t have to bring his injury into it!!

Bobby K has asked Renault to end his short term deal with them so he can go to Williams looking for other opportunities.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mclaren-honda-end-engine-partnership-952183/

Further confirmation

Would love to see Alonso’s face if they sort the problems and it turns out to be a good engine next year

Would love to see Alonso’s face if they sort the problems and it turns out to be a good engine next year

They have had 3 shots recently and all have been a total failure. The last time they were in F1 the Honda engine was nothing to write home about either. I just don’t see it happening, they seem very entrenched in the way they want to make it happen and its just not working at all.

You have to bear in mind the other engine manufacturers had a 4 year head start though.

It’s like the V4(8) motorbike engine saga again, or when.they kept insisting they’d never make a diesel car engine.

You have to bear in mind the other engine manufacturers had a 4 year head start though.

Granted but then none of them were as poor as the Honda has been.

I think Honda as a whole are a company stuck in a real mess. There was a great article on them I found a few days ago.

Would love to see Alonso’s face if they sort the problems and it turns out to be a good engine next year

He’d probably say something like “well done but I wasn’t for risking another year of my limited career”

It’s good for him that he’s out of the Red Bull system – at least he’s now free to go where he wants in future rather than wait for a space in the Red Bull team.

Sainz is still under contract to Red Bull for some years. In 2018 he’s officially “on loan” to Renault and I read something that suggests that if the Renault engine in 2018 isn’t so good and Honda turn it around, you may see one or both of Ricciardo and Verstappen going back to Torro Rosso with Sainz going to Red Bull with whoever else they have around (Gasly for example).

atlaz – Member
Sainz is still under contract to Red Bull for some years. In 2018 he’s officially “on loan” to Renault and I read something that suggests that if the Renault engine in 2018 isn’t so good and Honda turn it around, you may see one or both of Ricciardo and Verstappen going back to Torro Rosso with Sainz going to Red Bull with whoever else they have around (Gasly for example).

I would have thought they’d just swap the engine over to the main RB team? Or even add it as a second team for Honda to double the testing time they get.

That’s the other issue Honda (and Ferrari in years previous) have had, data from only two cars, compare to Mercedes and Renault with 6 cars worth of data each.

Yep – they’d just swap the engine to main Red Bull team if it was any good!

Another rumour is that Red Bull will pull the plug completely at the end of 2020 (they are contracted till then). But they’ve threatened this for years.

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/f1/porsche-poised-red-bull-buyout

That article about Porsche is just word salad. Total conjecture and no facts. They pulled out of LMP1 for reasons and those reasons still exist. Much more likely they will enter Formula E, especially given where the combustion engine is going now.

I read something that suggests that if the Renault engine in 2018 isn’t so good and Honda turn it around, you may see one or both of Ricciardo and Verstappen going back to Torro Rosso with Sainz going to Red Bull with whoever else they have around (Gasly for example).

As above, doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. If Honda make a leap forward in the TR, RB would take it and become a de facto works outfit. They wouldn’t turn their entire operational hierarchy on its head.

The reasons for Honda’s apparent malaise are mainly down to the company’s dogged insistence of doing everything in-house and not formally engaging with external consultants and leaving it far too late to try to poach European engineers from Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault. This philosophy won them championships during the late 1980s/early 1990s but the game has changed with the advent of complex energy harvesting technology in the modern turbo era.

It’s been a hugely costly exercise for Honda, who spent 2009 watching a Honda chassis hastily adapted for a Mercedes engine win a world championship, just as Honda pulled the plug. But equally, it’s obvious that Honda have taken several retrograde steps this year in terms of engine power and reliability.

As a fan, it’s been a crying shame to witness the most talented driver on the grid farting his way around circuit after circuit chasing singular points while being punished by frequent mechanical failures. The McLaren chassis has been getting better and better, Ron has been ousted from the team and protégé Vandoorne hasn’t been able to demonstrate his abilities. McLaren are in the unfortunate position of having to tread water until new engine regulations come in, unless the 2018 Renault powerplant is significantly improved, I daresay the win drought will continue for some time yet.

As for the Red Bull/Porsche rumours, that won’t sit well with Aston Martin, one of the title sponsors for Red Bull.

I would have thought they’d just swap the engine over to the main RB team? Or even add it as a second team for Honda to double the testing time they get.

That would require engine suppliers agreeing to it. You’d have to argue that the kudos for Honda in making Torro Rosso a winner would be better than in doing it for Redbull. Likewise, Renault would have to accept a torn up contract and a move to a lesser team. It’s not like it’s one team with two garages, despite the owner.

Yep – they’d just swap the engine to main Red Bull team if it was any good!

No they wouldn’t, the whole car is built around the engine/gearbox. You can’t just crow bar it in.

This is why teams (Mclaren) have had to make a decision now…so they can start development of the 2018 car.

No they wouldn’t, the whole car is built around the engine/gearbox. You can’t just crow bar it in.

This is why teams (Mclaren) have had to make a decision now…so they can start development of the 2018 car.

I wasn’t expecting them to turn up with a lorry loads of engines at the start of the season and say “there you go mate – you can have ’em!” 😀

If by this time next year Honda have taken a huge leap forward it would be possible to build a 2019 Red Bull to take the engine. You can bet there is a clause in any Torro Rosso deal for this scenario.

And they’d have access to the full install specs, sizes and cooling requirements well in advance.

I can’t see Renault being too upset at losing a customer that won’t even have their name on the engine.

And Renault have desires to be their own No.1 team and supply lesser teams – as per Mercedes.

If by this time next year Honda have taken a huge leap forward it would be possible to build a 2019 Red Bull to take the engine. You can bet there is a clause in any Torro Rosso deal for this scenario.

That arrangement is dependent on McLaren supplying gearboxes. You can be pretty sure that there’s a contractual clause somewhere about McLaren’s gearboxes being solely for the use of Toro Rosso and not Red Bull.

dooosuk – Member
No they wouldn’t, the whole car is built around the engine/gearbox. You can’t just crow bar it in.

This is why teams (Mclaren) have had to make a decision now…so they can start development of the 2018 car.

You can bet your scrotum RB will have parallel design work running once they get details of the cooling setup requirements, mounting points, weight distribution etc.

RB effectively sell a lot of components to TR for their car, so for them take on the extra cost of running development of two separate engines, gearboxes etc makes no sense whatsoever unless they plan on moving it over to the main team so they can migrate away from renault (if it’s shown to be better).

Remember, RedBull made a lot of noise a while back about not being able to win unless you’re a works team, well having Honda will effectively give them that.

edit: whoops too slow

If by this time next year Honda have taken a huge leap forward it would be possible to build a 2019 Red Bull to take the engine. You can bet there is a clause in any Torro Rosso deal for this scenario.

I agree with this.

When I first read above, it sounded like Atlas was talking about switching drivers mid season..which was countered by an engine swap suggestion.

There’s surely no sense in TR switching from Renault to Honda without there being a clear path to a works deal with RB if and when Honda are finally firing on all cylinders. Whatever stands in the way of getting a Honda into a RB would have been addressed by Dieter and co already.

Plus, by that time Renault will hope to have made their chassis more competitive, which means they might prefer not to be fighting against their own PU in the RB.

This whole engine swapping make sense when you boil it down to the basics:

McLaren want rid of the Honda. They cannot take the Merc or Ferrari engine due to issues with their respective road car divisions. Taking a Renault supply works for them as they’re not in the same markets and Renault will gain reputation if McLaren start performing, something they don’t get with RedBull.

RedBull can evaluate the Honda effort at close quarters and if it comes good they can engineer a swap of supply for the main team. If it turns out to be a dud again in the next few years they don’t have to worry about Toro Rosso not winning and they can still evaluate their drivers against each other so they don’t lose anything from the new arrangement. If they do go full Honda works then they can also use Honda’s other racing efforts to advertise RedBull too in a reciprocal agreement. After losing so much face having to drop from McLaren to Toro Rosso Honda would jump at the chance to be in the back of a RedBull so any contractual iussues would be sorted.

With the speculation of new engine partners coming in with the new regs both McLaren and RedBull are still in the position to grab a works supply if the opportunity arises and ditch their Renault supply. They could both possibly start developing their own engines, linking up with Cosworth for example, if the Honda is indeed a lost cause and no new suppliers come forward. McLaren will elevate themselves to the same level as Ferrari, building car and engine, with a benefit to their road car business and RedBull can sell branding rights to their engine.

McLaren taking Renault engines with Toro Rosso going to Honda works for everyone except Honda who will lose face. The only way it can all go tits up is if Honda actually make a decent engine, even then only McLaren will lose out but having a Renault supply will make those losses minimal.

Whatever happens it will help tighten up the mid and front of the pack with RedBull, McLaren and Renault all being a more competitive package.

SHOCK NEWS – Bottas stays at Merc. Expect Lewis will be happy about that.

I do wonder if next year McLaren might be called just that, not McLaren-Renault as people expect…

I honestly don’t see that for Dieter Mateschitz, the Red Bull team winning is better than the Toro Rosso team winning. Both of them carry his branding, his drivers and his ownership so assuming chassis are roughly equal you’d not see the point in moving the engine deal. The better chassis married with the better engine I could see.

I do wonder if next year McLaren might be called just that, not McLaren-Renault as people expect…

If McLaren have their eyes on becoming a PU constructor in 2021, which seems quite plausible, then I’d think it makes far more sense to retain the Renault badge as distinct from their own product.

I honestly don’t see that for Dieter Mateschitz, the Red Bull team winning is better than the Toro Rosso team winning.

The Red Bull name is immeasurably more valuable than Toro Rosso, so in marketing terms it’d be an intergalactic balls-up to let RB sink. Plus all the top talent—drivers, engineers and management—is in the RB garage, not TR, so it’d be an intergalactic operational balls-up as well.

So they just rename the Toro Rosso team Red Bull and vice versa, and switch all the staff from one team to the other, whilst retaining the contracts each team has 😉

aracer – have you been on a few too many cans of Red Bull!? 😀

Red Bull gives you wtfings 😉

Bez – Member
If McLaren have their eyes on becoming a PU constructor in 2021, which seems quite plausible, then I’d think it makes far more sense to retain the Renault badge as distinct from their own product.

Possible I suppose, working with Ricardo you think? Not sure they have the expertise in house.

No idea TBH but it seems to make marketing and R&D sense in terms of enlarging their supercar division in competition with Ferrari and Mercedes.

FI aero department have been busy!…

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/force-india-singapore-shark-fin-mini-wings-952634/

So Renault are not going to be renewing RedBulls contract then..

…it appears so – and from the end of 2018 too – which leaves them up a certain creak without a paddle.

Even if the Porsche taking them over rumours are true I can’t see them building a new hybrid engine only to scrap it 2 years later.

So Renault are not going to be renewing RedBulls contract then..

Ooh? Source?

http://www.skysports.com/f1/live-blog/30104/10034948/f1-gossip-column

Red Bull-Renault now heading for divorce?
As Renault prepare to add McLaren to their customer engine roster from next season, the Daily Mail reports that the French manufacturer have notified long-time partners Red Bull that they won’t be supplying them with engines after 2018.

According to the newspaper, Renault have ‘concluded that their fractious relationship with the Red Bull team has run its course’ after a decade in partnership. Although the team-engine pairing won four consecutive world title doubles from 2010, Red Bull have failed to mount a title challenge since F1 switched to hybrid turbo engines in 2014. Amid repeated public criticism of Renault’s power unit from Red Bull, the relationship nearly came to breaking point in 2015 before the two parties eventually signed a new three-year deal. However, the scars of that war of words were still visible in the terms of that new deal, which allowed Red Bull to sell naming rights to the engine.

With junior team Toro Rosso set to switch their Renault engines for Honda power from next season, Red Bull could theoretically take on the Japanese manufacturer themselves in 2019 if they deem it to be sufficiently competitive. Reports in recent days have also speculated about a Red Bull-Porsche tie-up when F1’s next engine era begins in 2021.

They better hope that Honda engine comes good!

Thank you for the link.

Red Bull have made overtures to Honda before, back in 2015 I believe when the Renault turbo was misbehaving.

Heh. I guess my conjecture yesterday about Renault not wanting to supply RB wasn’t far off 🙂

Pressure’s back on Honda, then: they need to deliver a winning engine to RB in 2019.