F1 2017 (Bound to contain spoilers!)

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  • F1 2017 (Bound to contain spoilers!)
  • Premier Icon slowoldman
    Subscriber

    So if the engines are still hybrid by nature, are they starting to look at the power outputs of them ?

    You mean in terms of regulating the power output?

    bikebouy
    Member

    No, increasing the electric and maybe reducing the petrol..

    We’ll never bring back the heady days of v10’s and such, but no reason not to push the boundaries of hybrid IMO.

    dooosuk
    Member

    Not bad. I reckon the extra development will make it a good engine for next year. If they let Red Bull have the updates!!

    Maybe Hora was right in the 2016 thread, maybe most people commenting don’t have a clue.[/quote]

    I was alluding to the fact you think the “extra engine development well make it a good engine for next year”. The engines will be totally new and different. They’re all essentially starting from scratch.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    Bikebouy wrote:

    No, increasing the electric and maybe reducing the petrol..

    To increase the electrical they’d have to harvest more from somewhere – that already seems to be one of the really hot areas in terms of PU performance. So yes I expect there will be more contribution from the electric side, but don’t expect any huge leaps.

    shermer75
    Member

    I was alluding to the fact you think the “extra engine development well make it a good engine for next year”. The engines will be totally new and different. They’re all essentially starting from scratch.

    My understanding was that it was the aero and tyres that had changed, not the engines

    Premier Icon Rick Draper
    Subscriber

    And now with Mobil confirmed as Red Bull supplier perhaps a last minute switch to Honda power to try and oust McLaren as the factory team? If the Renault F1 team have designs on the title themselves, in the long-term they won’t like playing second-fiddle to Red Bull.

    McLaren have signed up with Castrol for 2017 and Honda work closely with them in WSB, moto gp and other formulas.

    bikebouy
    Member

    Well, I might then watch a few races.

    I like the idea of opening up competition rather than trying to create a one design box on rubber.

    holst
    Member

    Are the cars still hybrids ?

    As far as I know, the engine rules haven’t changed in any major way, except that the token system is gone. The power output is fundamentally constrained by the size of the fuel tank and the maximum fuel flow. The only way around that is to make the internal combustion engine more efficient or to improve the efficiency of the hybrid side. Mercedes started out a long way ahead of everyone else in 2014 and the other teams couldn’t catch them because of the token system. Renault and Honda both made some fundamental mistakes that they understood, but couldn’t fix because they basically needed to redesign the entire engine.

    Mercedes will gain the least from the removal of the token system, and their reliability problems last year suggest they might have started pushing things to the absolute limit to stay ahead of the Ferrari engine. Renault and Honda should improve massively in performance next year because they can now scrap their old engines and start from scratch. However, they may have reliability problems because of that. Red Bull have the best aerodynamic team, but Mercedes seem to be very good too. Ferrari and McLaren seem to be behind on aero, and both seem to be struggling on the management side of things. Renault are still rebuilding their team after years of neglect and unlikely to be able to beat Red Bull with the same engine. Red Bull and Merc are the obvious favorites. Question is whether their drivers will be able to avoid taking each other out. Alonso and Vettel might have an advantage just from getting on better with their teammates.

    Premier Icon scaredypants
    Subscriber

    Is “wider cars” a good thing? Seems to me that overtaking’s hard enough already so we’ll be even more reduced to blatting past people on the straights

    (I am one of those people who knows sweet FA about sweet F1)

    legend
    Member

    You’re not wrong, wider cars obviously make the track narrower. The other new issue is that higher cornering speeds mean even shorter braking distances, so out-braking becomes slightly harder too

    Trimix
    Member

    Wont they have higher grip next year ? (wider tyres, better aero) that will make overtaking much harder.

    If they wanted more overtaking they would have to increase braking distances, lower grip and have narrow cars.

    retro83
    Member

    Bikebouy wrote:

    No, increasing the electric and maybe reducing the petrol..
    We’ll never bring back the heady days of v10’s and such, but no reason not to push the boundaries of hybrid IMO.

    The problem is it’s really expensive to develop. Also extracting power from the exhaust spoils the sound.

    retro83
    Member

    trimix wrote:

    Wont they have higher grip next year ? (wider tyres, better aero) that will make overtaking much harder.
    If they wanted more overtaking they would have to increase braking distances, lower grip and have narrow cars.

    The idea is that the cars will be able to follow closer without cooking their tyres. Wider tyres = more mechanical grip, more draft effect for following car. More ground effect = less reliance on wings = less affected by turbulent air from car in front. It’s also physically harder on the drivers as they will corner (much!) faster. Will it actually work though? Doubt it. They need to much more drastically change the ratio of mech to aero grip I think.

    I personally don’t think the width of the cars is as much of a problem as the length. Too often we get punctures and lost front wings from people turning across each other and that’s caused by the length/overhangs more than the width (except in Monaco maybe).

    The problem is it’s really expensive to develop. Also extracting power from the exhaust spoils the sound.

    The teams fly around the world, drive huge trucks from airports to track and/or base, run masses of generators and we’re worried about the headline emissions from a few cars running for a couple of hours at the weekend.
    We’re looking at the wrong places.
    Surely it’s the drivers who determine the ovetaking and not the car. Formula E is built around the same vehicle and ther’e plenty of overtaking, same make racing has overtaking.
    I’m sure Max isn’t worried about next year.

    retro83
    Member

    captainsasquatch wrote:

    Formula E is built around the same vehicle and ther’e plenty of overtaking, same make racing has overtaking.
    I’m sure Max isn’t worried about next year.

    Well he big difference between E and F1 is the level of downforce. The wings do F all in FormulaE. I saw a race the other week where somebody lost their rear wing and somebody lost their front wing and were both still putting in decent laps until they were black flagged.

    Well he big difference between E and F1 is the level of downforce. The wings do F all in FormulaE. I saw a race the other week where somebody lost their rear wing and somebody lost their front wing and were both still putting in decent laps until they were black flagged.

    You’ll have to explain that one to me. Similar cars on the same track are differentiated by the size of the driver’s balls. Differnt cars on different tracks are going to be different.
    I think. 😕

    retro83
    Member

    captainsasquatch wrote:

    You’ll have to explain that one to me. Similar cars on the same track are differentiated by the size of the driver’s balls. Differnt cars on different tracks are going to be different.
    I think.

    Maybe I misunderstood your post, but all I was getting at is that it’s not just the fact the E teams are much closer in terms of performance, but also the fact they can run nose to tail with no performance loss (due to having much less reliance on aero).

    Lewis makes the same point here

    In terms of drivers not keen on more downforce, Lewis Hamilton perhaps put it most starkly: “I think we need more mechanical grip and less aero wake coming off the back of the cars so we can get close and overtake. Give us five seconds’ worth of lap time from aero and nothing will change – we’ll just be driving faster.”

    http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/10529238/f1-in-2017-what-can-we-expect-from-next-years-rule-changes

    holst
    Member

    Surely it’s the drivers who determine the ovetaking and not the car.

    F1 cars get most of their grip from aerodynamics. Once you get close to the car in front, you get into turbulent air and lose grip in corners. This kills the tyres. If you can’t stay close through a corner, it’s difficult to pass on the next straight. A lot of the friction between teammates has been because the driver behind has newer tyres and is faster, but cannot find a way past his teammate in an identical car, leading to the teams trying to impose team orders, only to have drivers ignore the instructions.

    The messing around with tyre rules the last few years has been to try and create a situation where different cars will be on different compound tyres and/or different stages of wear at different points in the race in order to increase the overtaking opportunities.

    willard
    Member

    Spoilers! Ah, _now_ I get it. Very clever.

    Maybe I misunderstood your post, but all I was getting at is that it’s not just the fact the E teams are much closer in terms of performance, but also the fact they can run nose to tail with no performance loss (due to having much less reliance on aero).

    Understood, my point was more about everything being equal for all drivers in each formula and it’s up to the drivers to find solutions. Max has shown that the overtaking book can be thrown out. And he has made the sport more exciting.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    holst wrote:

    Ferrari and McLaren seem to be behind on aero

    I’m not totally convinced by McLaren being that much behind – they’ve been so crippled by the engine performance that they’ve been running lower downforce and on occasions it’s been clear that the chassis is actually very good. Of course it is all change for next year, so it’s down to what the teams are capable of rather than what they’ve done in the past (though it seems the Honda engine changes will also mean McLaren have to drop the size zero concept which will cost them a bit).

    Premier Icon Rick Draper
    Subscriber

    I like McLaren and I hope Peter Prodromou and his team will be able to produce a strong car aerodynamically and Honda a engine to match. After all he learnt a lot from Newey.

    The only issue might be RedBull as Newey is the master generally when there is a rule change and designers are able to think outside the box.

    holst
    Member

    they’ve been so crippled by the engine performance that they’ve been running lower downforce and on occasions it’s been clear that the chassis is actually very good

    Fair point. The McHonda seems to be a good car with a poor engine. I would love to see them do well, but I still don’t think they are quite at the aero level of Red Bull and Merc. I would love to see Alonso battling for the championship with Ricciardo, Max, and Hamilton though.

    hora
    Member

    Did anyone else notice when Button was hugging everyone in the garage and I mean everyone, he acknowledged everyone except one person, his new team manager. He didn’t even look at him. Replay it if you can. I wonder what happened there? Wasn’t given an option?

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    Maybe not quite at the level of RB – I don’t think they’re so far off Merc., and in any case given an equal engine they’re possibly close enough to give a driver like Alonso a sniff, assuming he hasn’t lost it. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if FA, DR, MV and LH (and maybe even SV) all had a chance at winning races?

    I can’t quite remember when I changed from disliking Alonso to being quite a fan, but I think his attitude has changed a lot, which makes him rather more likeable.

    Premier Icon jca
    Subscriber

    Well Rosberg won’t win it since he has just retired.
    Not April 1st is it?
    BBC

    Premier Icon lowey
    Subscriber

    So no punishment for Hamilton then?

    johndoh
    Member

    Vettel in the car? Verstappen?

    Junkyard
    Member

    “Since 25 years in racing, it has been my dream, my ‘one thing’ to become Formula One World Champion. Through the hard work, the pain, the sacrifices, this has been my target. And now I’ve made it. I have climbed my mountain, I am on the peak, so this feels right. My strongest emotion right now is deep gratitude to everybody who supported me to make that dream happen.

    “This season, I tell you, it was so damn tough. I pushed like crazy in every area after the disappointments of the last two years; they fuelled my motivation to levels I had never experienced before. And of course that had an impact on the ones I love, too – it was a whole family effort of sacrifice, putting everything behind our target. I cannot find enough words to thank my wife Vivian; she has been incredible. She understood that this year was the big one, our opportunity to do it, and created the space for me to get full recovery between every race, looking after our daughter each night, taking over when things got tough and putting our championship first.

    “When I won the race in Suzuka, from the moment when the destiny of the title was in my own hands, the big pressure started and I began to think about ending my racing career if I became world champion. On Sunday morning in Abu Dhabi, I knew that it could be my last race and that feeling cleared my head before the start. I wanted to enjoy every part of the experience, knowing it might be the last time … and then the lights went out and I had the most intense 55 laps of my life. I took my decision on Monday evening. After reflecting for a day, the first people I told were Vivian and Georg [Nolte, from Nico’s management team], followed by Toto [Wolff].

    “The only thing that makes this decision in any way difficult for me is because I am putting my racing family into a tough situation. But Toto understood. He knew straight away that I was completely convinced and that reassured me. My proudest achievement in racing will always be to have won the world championship with this incredible team of people, the Silver Arrows.

    “Now, I’m just here to enjoy the moment. There is time tosavour the next weeks, to reflect on the season and to enjoy every experience that comes my way. After that, I will turn the next corner in my life and see what it has in store for me

    Premier Icon mrhoppy
    Subscriber

    WTF!

    Left his phone unlocked while he went to the bog and Lewis picked it up.

    MrSalmon
    Member

    Wow, didn’t see that coming!
    Who’ll get the seat then, Wehrlein?

    Premier Icon Rick Draper
    Subscriber

    Alonso now trying desperately to get out of McLaren and into a Mercedes next year!!!

    Premier Icon cp
    Subscriber

    Button’s got a place to go race now 🙂

    Pigface
    Member

    Wonder what made him do that?

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Subscriber

    Has anyone else just experienced a complete change of mind about the character of Nico Rosberg?

    Premier Icon convert
    Subscriber

    Has anyone else just experienced a complete change of mind about the character of Nico Rosberg?

    You kind of have to respect that level of left field thinking taking your professional by total surprise.

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