(And please don't make yourself look stupid by saying 'What about all the wars over religion?'!)

What about all the wars over religion?

Your comment is logical fallacy known as poisoning the well; no-one can mention wars over religion now, for fear of walking into the stupid label applied by you. Well it doesn't make anyone look stupid except you. You are essentially casting aside an area of discussion that has important relevance to the topic. Are you saying no wars have been caused by religion? How terribly ignorant.

I have lost relatives on both sides of the border in Ireland, I had the crap beaten out of me by proddies in Co Donegal for being "Papist scum" when I was 14 years old!

Australian Aboriginals have many creation stories which describe how the archetypal beings, including a giant snake from space, wandered the barren lands during the Dreaming, forming the features and eventually giving the spirits a physical form.

That story is at least ten thousand years old. And there are hundreds, probably thousands of other creation stories.

So I tend to wonder how creationists reconcile themselves to the fact that only their creation story can be "true" and all the others are false.

'What about all the wars over religion?

…is it alright if someone else asks it? 😉

seems to me that a big part of having a faith is being under no illusion that you might be at the most rational and least self-serving end of it. Even in the average moderately happy clappy church in the UK there is usually a spectrum of 'why do you come to church' reasons. Extrapolate that out to the whole world and its no wonder you get fundamentalists in every religion.

If we lived in a secular society then I would say 'believe what you want' but we don't.

perhaps a more interesting question is, what would you do differently if one case or the other were true ? However it came about, the world we have now is the one in which we act, and I think what people do is more important than what they believe.

For proof of the existence of God (who is manifest on this Earth by love, some would say), I look to the work of religious organisations who provide all sorts of help to people who need it.

Definitely the best part of religion is its ability to organise and galvanise people who want to do good.

But please don't try to claim a monopoly on doing good: surprisingly plenty of godless atheists manage to do good too (and without the promise of a reward in a happy eternity if they do, or fear of a firey punishment if they don't).

Are you saying no wars have been caused by religion? How terribly ignorant.

OK, what I meant was that wars that are 'religious' in name are actually fought over different issues entirely … oil / drugs / territory, whatever.

Religion is used to whip up fervour and gather support, but it's usually in some twisted form that has nothing to do with religious teachings.

War isn't preached in the Bible. Love is.

I think you'll find mr toys 19 that God gave us the choice for right and wrong when adam and eve ate from the forbidden tree (possibly before that I'm not that down with my religious scriptures). I think that it is completely nieve to say god doesn't exist because of suffering. He gave us the choice we just make the wrong ones alot (btw I don't believe in the physical manfestation of a god that can intervene in our world). Its not the bible that is bad its the people that choose to use it to control and corrupt people. Also DK you can copy it on to a word doc and take it to a t-shirt printer if you want, I might. 😆

But please don't try to claim a monopoly on doing good

I didn't mean to do that or give the impression that's what I meant.

Its not the bible that is bad its the people that choose to use it to control and corrupt people.

That's what I was getting at in my 'wars' comment! Better said than I put it though.

and indeed not only is morality not the sole preserve of the faithful, their morality is often not as pure as the secular. Homophobia? Men-only clergy? Anti-contraception? And that's even before you get to the moral failings of church administration such as the recent RC kerfuffle.

I think the point is relligion is used as a form of propaganda, to quote G.W. Bush 'we are going to conduct a crusade'.

Its not the bible that is bad

What would you define as 'bad'?

Infanticide? Genocide? Homophobia?

and indeed not only is morality not the sole preserve of the faithful, their morality is often not as pure as the secular. Homophobia? Men-only clergy? Anti-contraception? And that's even before you get to the moral failings of church administration such as the recent RC kerfuffle.

Yeah, unfortunately the church doesn't always give a good account of religion.

alex222 – Member
I think the point is relligion is used as a form of propaganda, to quote G.W. Bush 'we are going to conduct a crusade'.

No it's a form of control.

I think religion is more often used as a form of excuse.

"We're going to f*** with the middle east. But it's OK, it's a crusade"

Yeah, but c'mon, the whole Big Bang thing. It's bollocks isn't it? It even sounds like bollocks to be honest.

god made us to choose badness ?

DK – much like Parliament doesnt give a good account of Democracy? 😉

deadlydarcy – Member
Yeah, but c'mon, the whole Big Bang thing. It's bollocks isn't it? It even sounds like bollocks to be honest.

That's settled then, your case and the way you have presented it have completely convinced me 🙄

DK – much like Parliament doesnt give a good account of Democracy?

Exactly! Don't get me started… 🙂

I didn't say god made us to do anything. I just think that the belief that everything bad that happens is conclusive evidence that god doesn't exist is pretty dumb.

> "But please don't try to claim a monopoly on doing good"
I didn't mean to do that or give the impression that's what I meant.

Perhaps not, but you claimed that you saw proof of God in the good works of Christians. Presumably you didn't see proof of an uncaring abyss in the good works of atheists?

In fact I'm sure you would reassure yourself that such people were "doing God's work" even if they didn't realise it themselves.

Both gravity and evolution are observable facts.

erm, not sure that is true, maybe a few examples of micro evolution are observable, however speciation is not, nor is it possible to observe how massive increases in species such as the Cambrian explosion occurred. Also we can only theorise at how eyes or flight or many other things evolved. So whilst evolution may be an observable fact, its still only a theory certainly as far as the vast diversity of life on earth developed. Best off not over reaching when trying to convince the unbelievers.

Alex222 – what about all the horribleness in the supposedly good book then?

There is no proof that god doesn't exist.

On the other hand, there is no evidence that god does exist.

For many people, god/religion forms the basis of their culture and, importantly, their social life. I suspect that for many people, questioning this religion too much could result in a big change in their outlook, and so their life, and they would prefer to maintain the status quo.

It is interesting that 'the church' in the UK is rapidly ageing (as fewer and fewer younger people are involved). How long before the number of regular(not once a year at Xmas Eve, for tradition) attendees falls below the minimum required to sustain all of the infrastructure?

Graham you truly are a full weigh ar$e dk has never actually said he believed in god nor that he practiced religion. He is playing the devils advocate with his argument.

Lifer, convince me then…all that shit in the sky…all those billions of stars and solar systems…one really small point…then kaboom! And now all this?

Nah.

Bollocks.

Presumably you didn't see proof of an uncaring abyss in the good works of atheists?

I don't follow the logic of that one, sorry. (Is there any?)

In fact I'm sure you would reassure yourself that such people were "doing God's work" even if they didn't realise it themselves.

Nah, I don't. So you are, although sure, wrong. 🙂

Lifer I don't really what you are asking me to prove? When you say good book what do you mean. I think the pearl is a good book. So is war of the worlds.

alex222 – Member

I think you'll find mr toys 19 that God gave us the choice for right and wrong when adam and eve ate from the forbidden tree (possibly before that I'm not that down with my religious scriptures). I think that it is completely nieve to say god doesn't exist because of suffering. He gave us the choice we just make the wrong ones alot (btw I don't believe in the physical manfestation of a god that can intervene in our world). Its not the bible that is bad its the people that choose to use it to control and corrupt people. Also DK you can copy it on to a word doc and take it to a t-shirt printer if you want, I might.

Where exactly did I say suffering exists therefore god doesn't, can't you read? Anyway the bible is full of smoting and turning into pillars of salt and plagues and floods, so it advocates violence. No book is bad, of course it's the people, they say the bible says X so I can do Y, and I'm here to say hang on that's a load of arse. I'm not for banning or making religion illegal. I do advocate a secular society, and freedom of speech. I also enjoy poking fun at people as a way of making them wake up and smell the coffee.

[serious mode] When I meet someone and they tell me they believe in a god or gods then it helps me to discern how to consider them in my interactions with them. I personally believe its an excellent indicator of a persons character, so in a way it has a value. [/serious mode]

dk has never actually said he believed in god nor that he practiced religion

… although I am a baptised Christian, and I have a Franciscan cross hanging here on my noticeboard (a wedding present from the two Franciscan nuns who married us), I do tend to keep my personal beliefs private.

So joining in here is a mixture of playing devil's advocate and sorting out my own conflicted life view 🙂

Mainly, though it's the whole Creationist thing that gets to me.

I don't mind being thought of as a bit of a Christian, but if people thought that made me a Creationist, I'd be really pissed off!

deadlydarcy – Member
Lifer, convince me then…all that shit in the sky…all those billions of stars and solar systems…one really small point…then kaboom! And now all this?

Nah.

Bollocks.

I'm not an astronomer/astrophysicist but my understanding is that measurements of distances between galaxies and their direction of travel and velocity indicates that it all started from a single point. The Big Bang theory is one theory that describes this. Would love to see your conclusive research to the contary? Perhaps you've tracked galaxy moving the other way?

So joining in here is a mixture of playing devil's advocate and sorting out my own conflicted life view

It took me a re read of your post earlier to realise what was going on as you have made a few "conflicting" statements. Then I realised you were just a p*ss taker. 😀

you have made a few "conflicting" statements.

Have I ? Which ones?

Graham you truly are a full weigh ar$e dk has never actually said he believed in god nor that he practiced religion.

Oh noes. A "full weigh ar$e"? Mercy me.

dk said, quite clearly, that he saw "proof of the existence of God" in the good work of Christian organisations.

My point is simple: what do the good works of atheists prove?

The only fair thing to do when balancing this evidence, is to say that they are evidence against God; as they are evidence that people can do good without biblical reward or damnation.

Would love to see your conclusive research to the contrary? Perhaps you've tracked a galaxy moving the other way?

Lifer, Stop my sides are aching. Too funny.

alex222 – Member
Lifer I don't really what you are asking me to prove? When you say good book what do you mean. I think the pearl is a good book. So is war of the worlds.

You said the Bible isn't bad. There's a lot of bad stuff in it. And don't be obtuse you know exactly what I meant by 'The Good Book'.

Have I ? Which ones?

Yawn, I'll just go and find some. Hang on.

First you shoot down creationists, distancing yourself from them, to my mind, by alluding to the fact that they don't believe in science.

(So if you're trying to refute Creationist beliefs, it doesn't mean you're refuting Christianity or religion as a whole. Effectively, you're just arguing with a bunch of idiots who no-one with a brain takes seriously. Why bother?)

Then you decide you don't believe in science either.

But if science can't account for this simple-seeming hole in one of its central theories, how can the rest of science be taken seriously?

Look I'm not having a go, I find your comments amusing, you have admitted you are conflicted and to me it seemed obvious by your hopping around either side of the fence. Contrasted to me : All Creationists, Christians god bothers, Religious apologists, Believers, Those with faith, Anyone who believes in any religion – has a few spokes missing. I'm a fervent atheist. You haven't decided, that's cool, I'd rather you were on a path deciding than committed to dead end that is blind faith. Please carry on.

… that's Anglican Franciscans, I hasten to add.