True, you didn’t lie – my fault, I apologise.

You were just economical with the truth.

Again.

Thanks, that’s appreciated. I get wound up myself on here from time to time. I was only quoting the guy, he – in my and his opinion 😉 – is correctly pointing out the very real risk to the EU of governments failing to get to grip with a problem and at the same time allowing visa free travel for Turks. I am not sure where I was being economical either but I think we should just let that go

@molgrips no its not the same. Leave campaign is certainly flagging up the visa free travel and the amount of money the EU (therefore the UK) is sending Turkey’s way and the fact its very much “on the list” of potential joiners.

so not having to comply with all the legislation will be hugely liberating

See third world sweat shop or the dark satanic mills to see what unregulated business would do to the working classes…who jamby cares for more than any other ….like an absence of regulation ill help the poor….Hilarious.

If we can control our immigration we will be definition be able to take the best candidates for any job,

That makes the assumption the best candidate for any job is here.It also maes the assumption that currently businesses – pray tell why- are currently choosing realy crap candidates for the job. Moronic soundbite nonsense

Not if you are the working class person who’s wages are being undermined.

Have you heard of the Minimum wage that most working class folk work for? Its not a market rate its a regulated rate. There Is also the agricultural minimum wage as well.

Very simplistic I know but I have personally witnessed someone decline to even apply for a job because “it’s not worth the bother luv”.

WTf has this anecdote got to do with the issue we are discussing?

Racist? No idea. Hope not as that is worse than xenophobic. But given that we have been presented with no (non-falsifiable) arguments then one is left with little alternatve conclusions.

So far: false numbers; false statements re lack of border controls; false assessment of impact on wages. Would be very happy to read some proper reasons as xenophobia is very nasty and would love to be proved wrong.

This is worth repeating – never thought i would do that- but he has succinctly demolished what you think is an argument with simple facts and he is correct its just xenophobic sabre rattling gibberish with no basis in fact

For you to warble on about the working classes – I seem to have missed you ever GAS about them before on here – is a priceless piece of re engineering that BOris “protect our NHS” would admire.

Literally shameless.

. If we can control our immigration we will be definition be able to take the best candidates for any job, so there is a quality uptick in the labour force for example. Leaving the EU will take off the downward pressure on wages allowing them to stabilise and as the economy grows more vibrantly as we interact with faster growing economies outside the EU and UK business is not bound by irrelevant EU legislation wages can rise, that’s a Brexiter’s scenario.

@kelvin we can see in France and Spain the impact of labour regulation – 25% youth unemployment. That’s why Hollande is trying to reform it, he’s even pushing through without asking Parliament via a special Presidential decree

So a quick q&a
Is the problem in France due to uncontrolled migration?
What eu labour laws are causing the problem?
Are they laws the UK has too?
Could it perhaps be an economic problem and not the fault of the eu?

athgray – Member

Then Central Asia will join in too as they are related and if I were from Central Asia I would start to invest in a Turkish passport now. Not difficult to buy one if they speak almost the same language.

This is nonsense. What are you saying, if we let Turkey in everyone in the Arab world will be claiming Turkish citizenship because they are all pretty much the same? This is just ill conceived and ignorant scare mongering. [/quote]

Crikey … Turks are Not Arabs vice versa.

Many in Central Asia has already gone to Turkey for various reasons. Seeking asylum or before joining the fight in middle east.

They have common heritage because they are Turkic with link back to their mongol ancestors.

With Turkey wanting more influence in Central Asia they would welcome their long lost cousins with open arms then let them move on to where ever they prefer.

Here a map.

Jamba is it just me or did you completely miss mi6 guy saying that you can not stem an irresistible tide of migration with border controls. So i’m pretty baffled by your line of argument that turkey will stem the tide of migration, with border controls?

Leaving the EU will take off the downward pressure on wages allowing them to stabilise and as the economy grows more vibrantly as we interact with faster growing economies outside the EU

Dealing more with India and China will take off downward pressure on wages? Yeah, right!

Not sure if you were looking for a call centre picture, but that is actually a LAN party from about 10 years ago ^^

I was thinking that – what is the relevance of the photo to the point or the debate. Has the Doc gone rogue and flipped to the other side?

I was thinking that – what is the relevance of the photo to the point or the debate. Has the Doc gone rogue and flipped to the other side?

The point is that these are the people(*) that we will be competing with for low-paid work if we drop EU employment protection and interact more closely with India. Does that seem like a victory for the Working Man?

I’m not really on a side here – I will vote IN, but I will hold my nose doing so essentially for the reasons given in Paul Mason’s article.

(*Apparently they aren’t – the pic was taken from a site where it was represented as being of a call centre. Luckily the local experts are here to put me right 🙂 )

Whats that Farage is awake…

There could be unstoppable demand for a re-run of the EU referendum if Remains wins by a narrow margin on 23 June, UKIP leader Nigel Farage has said.
Mr Farage said he believed the Leave campaign were on course for victory.
But he said there would be resentment, particularly in the Conservative Party, if not, with claims the referendum will not have been a fair contest.
Leave campaigners are angry at the government for spending £9m on pro-EU leaflets sent to every UK home.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36306681
just given it the #jambyfacts edit 😉

“We definitely won’t lose but if we do we’ll do it again until we don’t”. FRO Nigel.

i wonder how he’d feel about a re-run if the ‘Leave’ vote won…?

(i’ll assume that would be a completely different matter, the British people have spoken, etc.)

Like Scotland – it depends on the answer. Although tbf the European’s have also been playing the vote til will win card too.

The point is that these are the people(*) that we will be competing with for low-paid work if we drop EU employment protection and interact more closely with India. Does that seem like a victory for the Working Man?

That’s got to be a resounding, if not deafening, NO.

Junkyard – lazarus

See third world sweat shop or the dark satanic mills to see what unregulated business would do to the working classes

Most of these third world sweat shops are in corrupt, undemocratic nations.

Workers rights will not be eroded while we….
A. Live in a democracy
and
B. Have vastly more workers than employers

(unless of course the workers vote for it)

This is why the EU is so dangerous, it is totally undemocratic, corrupt and open to manipulation from big business.

One of the reasons the late Bob Crow, trade unionist and champion of the working man was so vehemently opposed to the EU project.

I’m not really on a side here – I will vote IN, but I will hold my nose doing so essentially for the reasons given in Paul Mason’s article.

Pretty much where I am too. I’m not a fan of the EU in its present form. To say the least. But the alternative is absolutely unthinkable. A newly crowned, and victorious King Boris and his uber-rightwing, neoliberal stormtroopers – the likes of John Redwood – being essentially handed a blank sheet of paper to draw up what they’d like our new legislative framework to look like?

Erm… no thanks!

Most of these third world sweat shops are in corrupt, undemocratic nations.

Simplistic and not fully true. Essentially all capitalism starts of like that till we regulate the shit out of them. It just takes time even in a democracy as the owners of capital exert a disproportionate influence.

Workers rights will not be eroded while we….
A. Live in a democracy
and
B. Have vastly more workers than employers

Your faith in the right wing – Dave just cancelled his current union bashing laws to get them onside on the EU debate for example – is as touching as it is misguided

How else can one “liberalise” the employment sector without removing protections? Go on what will they do?

You may have noted that both of those criteria applied when we had the dark satanic mills and we will always have more employees than employers so clearly that fact alone cannot protect the workers.

I agree its strange that folk don’t mind voting for folk who will erode their rights but that is democracy for you.

History teaches us that unrestrained employers will rather kill children than switch of machines

Pretty much where I am too. I’m not a fan of the EU in its present form. To say the least. But the alternative is absolutely unthinkable. A newly crowned, and victorious King Boris and his uber-rightwing, neoliberal stormtroopers – the likes of John Redwood – being essentially handed a blank sheet of paper to draw up what they’d like our new legislative framework to look like?

Erm… no thanks!

THIS I started of a fence sitter and unsure but when one looks at the most vocal Brexiters and one listens to their rationale I realised nothing could make me cross the lobby with this rabble

Its not a passionate yes but it is a definite yes.

DrJ like I said it makes a big difference if the job seekers have the right to come to the UK, outsourcing vs reducing in house Labour costs.

To respond to earlier questions as to why no other country is publically in favour of the UK leaving the EU. My answer is clear, its not in THEIR interest. The EU is weak economically, it needs the UK to stabilise it. If we leave it could well trigger a collapse or at least demands for Referendum’s in other countries. The EU needs us as part of the club to help manage the fallout from a Greek default, the rest of the world don’t want the severe economic shock of a collapsing EU. The rest of the world don’t give a stuff about whether the EU is good for us, whether we have a loss of sovereignty or whether membership costs us far too much for little in return.

Workers rights will not be eroded while we….
A. Live in a democracy
and
B. Have vastly more workers than employers

That only works if voters work like perfect theoretical voters. In other words, they aren’t being manipulated by external factors. Unfortunately, they are, all the time. So it fails.

Binners and Junky my point entirely. You have no positive case for Remain, you are trading the medium and long term future of the UK for a short term tactical punt to try and stop one person, a small detail. Even if Remain wins its my view Boris will win the leadership contest in 2019. Osbourne has stuffed up his last two budgets and this campaign has shown (if you didn’t know already) he’s a poor speaker with no charisma.

Relying on the EU to “stop Boris” is such a negative stance, why not focus on Labour having an electable offering ?

jambalaya

whether we have a loss of sovereignty

😆

Relying on the EU to “stop Boris” is such a negative stance

Negative? In what way? Thinking what he’d do if he got a sniff of any real power, I’d say that anyone with anything between their ears would do anything they could to stop Boris and his little rightwing minions being allowed to enact their neoliberal agenda, unconstrained.

why not focus on Labour having an electable offering ?

Because thats a problem 4 years away. The EU referendum is next month

The EU is weak economically, it needs the UK to stabilise it. If we leave it could well trigger a collapse or at least demands for Referendum’s in other countries. The EU needs us as part of the club to help manage the fallout from a Greek default

What planet are you living on where you think that any other country in the world sees us as anything other than an embarrassingly eccentric, financially and morally bankrupt, senile old aunt?

We’re extremely lucky (and I have no idea how we’re managing to get away with it) that the EU and the greater global community is thus far feeling sorry for us and willing to prop us up for a little longer, as long as we keep paying the rent..

I don’t think their charity will last forever though, and it’s a certainty that it will be withdrawn the minute we strike out on our own with mad intentions

A question I’ve always wondered about in Europe, this is maybe taking this off topic a bit, but do you think the Eurozone would have fared better if Britain had joined the Euro all those years ago. Does the Eurozone struggle because Britain didn’t enter the Euro and go full bhoona in to things like that and Schengen? Is the Eurozone much weaker because it’s essentially missing one of it’s strongest economies?

What planet are you living on where you think that any other country in the world sees us as anything other than an embarrassingly eccentric, financially and morally bankrupt, senile old aunt?

Earth?

What evidence do you have for this? As in, things people have said? Cos it sounds at first reading like you are being a miserable curmudgeon. I’m going to press you to back up this statement.

What planet are you living on where you think that any other country in the world sees us as anything other than an embarrassingly eccentric, financially and morally bankrupt, senile old aunt?

😯

To respond to earlier questions as to why no other country is publically in favour of the UK leaving the EU. My answer is clear, its not in THEIR interest.

Them and us, them and us.

My answer is clearer still, its not in all our interests.

The EU is weak economically, it needs the UK to stabilise it.

No it doesn’t although it is beneficial for both parties to cooperate with each other.

If we leave it could well trigger a collapse or at least demands for Referendum’s in other countries.

Possibly

The EU needs us as part of the club to help manage the fallout from a Greek default,

No they don’t – shall we elaborate on UK exposure to date, its form and the protections that Osborne put in place?

the rest of the world don’t want the severe economic shock of a collapsing EU.

Who does?

we have a loss of sovereignty or whether membership costs us far too much for little in return.

😀

No Joe – the € is in trouble because (1)the €-area does not fulfil the criteria required to be an optimal currency area and (2) even if it did, to be successful a common currency requires full monetary and fiscal policy integration which requires (higher levels of) political union. This is missing.

So wrong idea and badly implemented. Other than that….

[nowt to do with UK)

I do love rational discussion. Not as much as I like a full blown rant though.

You have no positive case for Remain,

There is no positive case for Brexit IMO it seems to be a regressive worldview built on jingoistic nationalism and a longing for the ‘days of Empire’.
The economic case for Leave is very, very weak to non-existent which creates a high risk in the short-term and no one can predict the medium to long-term although history would suggest that it would not be good for Britain.

Economic blocks is the way forward and yes the EU is not perfect but from a social, scientific and ecological pov remaining in certainly has short term benefits which suggests these will lead to medium & long term benefits.

The economic case for Leave is very, very weak

Sad, that so many of the remain camp are obsessed with just the economic factors associated with leaving / remaining. I have never heard so much negative talk regarding the ‘possible’ impact of Britain going it alone. It’s basically become a self fulfilling prophecy that we will fail before we have even tried.

Still. Let’s keep pushing down the road and follow the EU train. I’m sure good things will eventually come of it 😯

I’m sure good things will eventually come of it

Are you saying nothing good has ever come of it?

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9foi342LXQE[/video]

Sad, that so many of the remain camp are obsessed with just the economic factors associated with leaving / remaining.

Which is why its a relief that a quick scan of this thread alone suggests that this is not the case.

Is “so many” as in the “many millions” of nasty foreigners who keep coming in to get free health care?

I have never heard so much negative talk regarding the ‘possible’ impact of Britain going it alone. It’s basically become a self fulfilling prophecy that we will fail before we have even tried.

Don’t worry I think if you try hard you can win x factor and the lottery. Do you want it to happen, let’s all send out some positive thinking and see if it works
Did it work yet?
Did it?
Did it?

Is “so many” as in the “many millions” of nasty foreigners who keep coming in to get free health care?

Our health service is coping just fine. The NHS in it’s current state can handle many more people demanding it’s services. Same as our schools. Plenty of places for everyone. Come, come, we welcome you.

Peace & Love to all.

Sad, that so many of the remain camp are obsessed with just the economic factors associated with leaving / remaining.

Money makes the World go round (wrongly or rightly….) so, I think it’s hardly surprising that some consider the economic effects to be rather significant.

Perhaps in your ivory tower in/out makes no difference?…..

What planet are you living on where you think that any other country in the world sees us as anything other than an embarrassingly eccentric, financially and morally bankrupt, senile old aunt?

Really?…..care to back that one up?

Binners and Junky my point entirely is a massive collection of non sequiturs and straw men

yes, yes it is 🙄

I have never heard so much negative talk regarding the ‘possible’ impact of Britain going it alone. It’s basically become a self fulfilling prophecy that we will fail before we have even tried

you are about to do a descent its rocky its rough and the route is unpredictable

We advise its unwise to do it on the ridged 26 er and suggest you use the FS. you talk to us about negativity

We watch you crash but eventually you do get down

What planet are you living on where you think that any other country in the world sees us as anything other than an embarrassingly eccentric, financially and morally bankrupt, senile old aunt?

STW is much much more important than that – top trolling though