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If different individuals view democracy differently then something can be both an affront and not an affront at the same time.
Did we just poison another cat?
mt - I know. Not only was I part of the independence process, but I became its first elected leader to be born outside the boundaries of the three eternal Ridings.
They said that would never happen.
Of course BS works, it always has.
The sad thing is that it has become the norm. Politicians used to lie a bit, dodge questions etc,. whereas now they are now happy to just simply make stuff up.
And because the referendum was a one off vote with campaigns rather than parties (who have to deal with the lies they told) there seems to be no come back on the biggest liers
Mike 8)
Agreed IGM which is why I read the books of how they won immediately after the result.
It’s a challenge for sure. During the Scottish Indy debate when lying for effect really took off I asked Chris.Bryant and Ken Clarke why labour and Tories allowed Salmond to get away with bare faced lies. They both claimed that the modern strategy was not to engage with the lies but attempt to shape the narrative in a different way. I thought that this was a bit odd at the time. But it worked - just. When it came to Brexshit however we lost control of the narractive. The £350 lies was given oxygen on a daily basis and sadly it worked. The cost became a significant isssue despite the obvious BS that surrounded it
So perhaps Clarke and Bryant were correct after all.
But none of the above justifies trying to out lie the Brexshiteers IMO
a challenge THM, you probably missed this on the previous page
mikewsmith - Member
Well for a learning day if you want to help improve the class and civility of the debate how about you try and drop the remoaner/brexshiter/grown ups comments. It adds nothing to the debate.
IGM here is a good example
The BS is part of a 2 pronged attack -
First say something that you want that diverts from the real issues ...Then waste pages of discussion and time debating the finer details and abstract meanings, getting really keen on exact details while refusing to discuss the bigger picture issues, be that 350 million or the definition of austerity.
The austerity argument is exactly what mike unintentionally describes. A false idea is planted in people’s minds in order to move the core debate away from the real issue. That worked too
Without his sneering about everyone else how would we all know how superior he is?
Mike if you keep stating stuff that is untrue then you are going to get the response that is appropriate.
Making stuff up adds nothing to the debate. There’s a challenge for you
Democracy requires an informed electorate. Because of the 20+ year anti eu campaign from the press which is all based on lies and the lies from the leavers we did not have an informed electorate.
Final words on Austerity as it's just being used as a distraction to the debate - when 2 tory chancellors describe it as austerity then we might have to accept the definition has changed from your text book. END OF OT.
Next up some major issues for the UK government and the people of the UK to debate and work through. At this point ignoring the people and heading down the Brexit by ideology regardless of the consequences is not helpful.
you are going to get the response that is appropriate.
Call people remoaners, brexitshiters and by implication children and you kind of have to stop complaining if you feel insulted.
Mike - don't feed the troll
Ignoring the people - QED
We had a referendum where the promise was made to all that the result would be respected. The core question was do we want to remain members of the EU (and all that this entails). Since the result, every trick under the book is being used to ignore the people including out BSing the Brexshiteers. A remarkable achievement
But is it actually unacceptable?
Not should it be. Is it?
Ignoring a non-binding referendum to look after the best interests of the Country as a whole would be a small price to pay (and also the "grown-up" thing to do).
Since the result, every trick under the book is being used to ignore the people
By literally setting one moment in stone, then refusing to accept that there could be any change in opinion. You can't respect one thing then ignore everything after it.
If you booked a winter sports holiday and before you left you were told there's no snow.
Would you still go or book a beach holiday?
Obviously one of us would be there attempting to snowboard on rocks.
I think at this point we've had the supposedly best minds in the country spending a year and a half trying their hardest to work out how to leave in a bearable fashion and they've drawn a blank.
If the people voted for unicorns how much time and money would we expect the govt to spend trying to create them before giving it up as a bad job?
Obviously one of us would be there attempting to snowboard on rocks.
it is the will of the people
That’s exactly what you are doing mike
Note how the progress - admittedly very slow progress - is being denied. The on going lies about the divorce bill -again factually inaccurate - scare stories about the UK accepting everything when in fact a remarkable compromise in money has been negotiated - oh and on that there the idea that no one of intelligence is involved in negotiations.
This inflexible BS is repeated day after day and then you get upset when it’s poInted out.
Feel free to ignore the changing environment.
Lies and fabrication - we can see there is progress but it is painful, embarassing progress towards a humiliatingly crap exit.
What progress? We are exactly in the same position we were a year ago with the same issues that were flagged up then still in the way. OK pay has agreed to pay what we owe - I suppose thats progress but on the other issues of rights for citizens and irish border the same issues remain.
The rabids will not accept ECJ jurisdiction in any form and for the EU this is a red line and no solution is yet available for NI because there isn't one.
no solution is yet available for NI because there isn't one.
QED
Feel free to ignore the changing environment.
Yep I think we can all agree stuff is changing, from what was presented as a simple Yes or No decision it's becoming way more complex than that, there are a lot of different games going on and the chances of the promised land is evaporating so reality is hitting.
The UK will be paying the EU more money
The EU is moving it's jobs out of the UK
etc.
If you don't want to see the changing public opinion then that is up to you.
So... predictions for today in our surreal post-sense world?
As its a cabinet meeting this morning, most of whom appeared to no nowt in advance about Theresa's DUP-baiting show-stopper yesterday, I'm predicting a mega-flounce of one sort or another.
Either
A) Boris - just because at this glaringly inopportune moment for the country, this is just exactly the sort of thing the narcissistic, self-serving shit would do
B) David Davis - just seeing his opportunity to bolt for the exit before the whole shitshow implodes completely
C) Theresa finally having as much as she can take as she looks over the squabbling schoolchildren before her, and storming out with a parting "Do you know what? You lot ****ing sort it out then! I'm off!"
D) Damien Green - because the meeting was dragging on for a bit, and it'd been over an hour since his last hand-shandy
What do you reckon?
The usual shits will be positioning themselves ready for the inevitable Maybot implosion. After all, it's pretty much entirely her fault that the DUP is effectively sat at the cabinet table.
So not a) (he who wields the knife etc)
How about E) Chris Grayling resigns, no-one notices.
I reckon they will all sit round readjusting their prejudices and blaming anyone but themselves
They were talking about the Tories not the SNP
How about E) Chris Grayling resigns, no-one notices.
Or Grayling jumps off the roof and I open a beer.
How about they hang Gove and BoJo from the windows by their balls
Or Grayling jumps off the roof and I open a beer.
Both of these options do require Grayling to magically acquire a spine, though.
[quote=teamhurtmore ]They were talking about the Tories not the SNP
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The UK will be paying the EU more money
The EU is moving it's jobs out of the UK
The UK having to spend money on the stuff that the EU currently does.
I'm finding it difficult to dispute Ed Millibands analysis this morning on Twitter...
[i]What a ludicrous, incompetent, absurd, make it up as you go along, couldn’t run a piss up in a brewery bunch of jokers[/i]
Indeed 😆
He should stick that on a stone tablet if he's still got one lying around somewhere.
Nah I think somebody has carved 52% wwyl into it
Hows the challenge going mike 😉
Since the result, every trick under the book is being used to ignore the people including out BSing the Brexshiteers
Yes of course. I assume thats out BSing along the lines of "350 million". Still at least the remainers aint taking the enemy of the people line (which is a rather good for democracy dont you think?)
The one off vote is something favoured by various Islamic extremist parties, amongst others, where power via the ballot box is achieved once and then the options are shut down to block any reconsideration.
Remember st farage himself is on record that a 52-48 vote would result in him campaigning for a second referendum. Its just that being a hypocritical arsehole he quickly changed his mind when that 4% was in his favour.
What are you arguing for?
Is it different?
Politicians lying with inpunity is a problem for society. The legal system seems impotent so it goes on. It's also a problem on this forum too. there are serial liars and one serial accuser of lying where there is no lie.
I've been reporting posts with accusations of lying where objectively there was not lie and today I've had a response from the moderators. Thank you, whoever wrote it.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion provided they've not breached any Forum Rules. Fact-checking is down to individuals and your reporting of these types of posts really isn't helpful when we have a very active Forum to moderate. Thanks.
So there you have it, lying or accussing someone of lying when they aren't doesn't constitute negative use of the forum and isn't considered a personal attack by the moderator who took the time and trouble to reply to my reports.
If the moderators don't intervene, which one has now stated he/she won't, this thread is never going to rise above its current status of bitch fest and slanging match.
The thread that broke STW.
Thanks @cg. My step-father said exactly the same thing, and I think it's a reasonable position. Sadly what was not made abundantly clear is how far things have moved, and how irreversible the situation has become. Particularly with regards to regulation (medicines and aviation being closest to my heart).
When do we start speaking Norwegian? Because that's the deal we will end up with. There is no other solution acceptable to maintain the GFA - which must be protected above all else.
Of course which government will enact the final agreement remains to be seen.
edukator. Take my advice? Block the most obvious lying troll THM. Correct the others.
Not sure a Norway style arrangement is nearly close enough to solve the Irish issues at all. Customs union (of some kind) needed as well, and farming/food needs something special as well.
It’s isn’t kelvin
Another reason to reject the off the shelf proposals and work for one that specifically addresses our unique needs
The thread that broke STW.
Nope. Easy to use the forum and complete ignore this thread.
Also, the content of this thread reflects Britian as it currently is reasonably well. Plenty of my discussions with family and threads just as messy. Well, ignoring the tone of some here… the Internet allows people to play games rather than engage, in a way no one would bother putting up with face to face.
@ igm. it's universally agreed that our cosmopolitan country of Yorkshire welcomes commerinners as they add value to our culturally rich and independent minded peoples. Your leadership has been a great success, so much so Norway are sending a delegation to understand how they mimic Yorkshire. Their interest it would seem is the wealth of our simple Yorkshire folk, its successful companies and the massive sovereign wealth fund. It never ceases to amaze me that all those years ago when the Free Yorkshire referendum happened, the remoaners thought Yorkshire fail and never be able to pay our bills. It would now seem we have easily settled the UK divorce bill with so much brass to spare we are subsidising the the rest of the former UK, mind those rebellious Scots have always got there hand out for more. It has been sad to see the rest of the acrimonious break up of Great Britain (ha ha), but at least Wales has decided to become a Yorkshire protectorate, you turning away Northern Ireland for the same was very astute (much to argumentative). Perhaps we should have allowed Lancashire a fairer hearing rather rejecting there considerable money offer to become Yorkshire, I know its traditional to hate them (and we should respect tradition) but look at all that black puddin we could have had tariff free.
Another reason to reject the off the shelf proposals and work for one that specifically addresses our unique needs
Agreed. Unless you rule out all the existing means to achieve that, with no time to build something new even if 30+ other countries wanted to placate one country having an internal political crisis.
Get operating inside the SM & CU back on the table, get agreements based on that, leave " Brexitiers " to spend years trying to push us out of those arrangements, and " Remoaners " spending their time and energy trying to get us membership again. In the meantime, border people get on with their lives, supply chains are maintained… you don't get political closure on the Europe issue in the big two parties…BUT YOU NEVER WILL.
I'm finding it difficult to dispute Ed Millibands analysis this morning on Twitter...What a ludicrous, incompetent, absurd, make it up as you go along, couldn’t run a piss up in a brewery bunch of jokers
Ed Miliband was on Richard Herrings podcast recently -it's worth a listen! There was quite a bit of Brexit discussion. (He's a remainer, but thinks we should honour the referendum result and leave)
https://www.comedy.co.uk/podcasts/richard_herring_lst_podcast/
Another reason to reject the off the shelf proposals and work for one that specifically addresses our unique needs
another la la land post. We have spent 18 months now and have moved some way towards the EU minimum position for starting talks on trade. We could have been here 18 months ago as it was obvious then what the issues were.
A bespoke deal - how long to organise / negotiate that? Why would the EU give us anything that gives us a trading advantage? There is absolutely no incentive for the EU to do this at all.; Its simply more pie in the sky / magic airy dust from the tories so they can attempt to blame the EU.
Its tyme the tories and the rabid leavers got a dose off reality. Living in la la land along with THM for the last few years
It will be a "bespoke deal"… any deal we get will be a unique one… it's another "Brexit means Brexit" term.
Base that deal on operating in SM & CU… the hardest, and most "bespoke" bit is farming and fishing… there is nothing we can pick up and use there that suits us (or Ireland, or numerous other EU countries).
I very much doubt it Kevi9n. Been pretty well ruled out and there is no time to negotiate anything. Its fold on the 3 issues, then accept one of the solutions currently in use.
Get operating inside the SM & CU back on the table, get agreements based on that
It's becoming increasingly evident that that is the only workable solution to this, so I expect that's what'll happen.....
Eventually.....
After May and co spend the next twelve months saying they definitely won't be doing that, then caving
The committee is still working on the colour.
As said bespoke covers everything from the UKs current membership with veto and rebate to full hard cliff edge brexit.
Red. Definitely red.
Or green.
Any deal we get needs a hell of a lot of work to be done still, we can't just copy the arrangements of any other country. EFTA isn't even close enough. That is why many people want the option of keeping membership kept open. In the meantime, scrap political redlines and start working on a deal that includes SM & CU (no idea about farm'n'fish).Its fold on the 3 issues, then accept one of the solutions currently in use.
Politicians lying with inpunity is a problem for society. The legal system seems impotent so it goes on.
Exactly. Suddenly, if a politician stands in front of a bus painted with a slogan promising to spend a large sum of money on the NHS and less than 24 hours after the referendum they renege on that promise, you'd expect there to be serious repercussions for that politician's career, no? At the very least, trust in politics could be in part repaired by a formal investigation into the conduct of various politicians followed by punitive action against individuals who've been proven to have misled the public.
The precedent that's been inadvertently set worries me. Suddenly it's okay to lie, because what your average person in the street assumes to be a pledge, suddenly becomes an "aspiration". What next, a new prime minister makes a pledge to fix inequality and social division on the steps of No 10, then does absolutely nothing to make good and gets away with it?
Like I said before, if successive governments had put effort into fixing the social divisions that have festered since (at least) the early 1980s, then we would not be in the mess that we're in.
Just remember that as demonstrated here repeatedly they will try and argue on any kind of technicality in order to avoid the majority of huge and important questions that they have no plausible answers to.
You mean like how we were promised a referendum before the adoption of the EU constitution (indeed, it was a manifesto pledge “ "We will put it to the British people in a referendum and campaign wholeheartedly for a Yes vote.")
Yet after the constitution got kicked into the long grass, and replaced by the Lisbon Treaty - in 2007 Tony Blair was telling us that it wasn’t needed, because the Lisbon Treaty was different to the EU constitution.
So, if you went to complain about people relying on “technicalities” then theres your great big stinking elephant in the room, we went *into* the EU in breach of an election manifesto pledge by the Labour Party, who wriggled out of it [s]because they knew they would lose[/s] on a technicality
less than 24 hours after the referendum they renege on that promise
Oh look, more fake news - Farage had nothing to do with the bus, he wasn’t even part of the leave campaign
Blair's duplicity played a major role in the current bad feeling towards the EU, and European immigrants, that's for sure.
The problems for any bespoke deal remain the same
1) ECJ - its an absolute no from the rabid tendency that the ECJ is involved. However no deal can be done without the ECJ to oversee the supranational law. the EU is not going to create a special tribunal under another name and anyway anything legal that is supranational is unacceptable to the rabids. This is why we have no deal yet on citizens rights.
2) NI - the need under the GFA for an open border on the island or ireland is an absolute red line for Dublin and the EU. A border in the north sea is not acceptable to the rabids and the DUP. Remaining in the customs union would solve the NI problem - but is unacceptable to the leavers even the non rabids as we would then not be legally able to make trade deals with others amogst other things
This is the reality of the positions of the various factions. Completely insoluble as we saw yesterday. the problem is we are not dealing with people acting logially on the leavers side. this no deal is possible.
the need under the GFA for an open border on the island of ireland
Care to tell us where the GFA says that?
Section or paragraph will be fine.
Who wants to have a go at some pros and cons now we know a bit more?
And despite that, the real people involved on both sides continue to spin the line that progress will be made this month. What planet are these guys on? Planet la la land? Why waste time on something that will never happen?
From the Guardian website, just now....
[i]The Scottish Tory leader, Ruth Davidson, has called for Theresa May to extend the special EU deal being sought for Northern Ireland across the UK, arguing that it would protect the UK’s internal markets.
In a statement Davidson said:
The question on the Brexit ballot paper asked voters whether the UK should stay or leave the European Union - it did not ask if the country should be divided by different deals for different home nations.
While I recognise the complexity of the current negotiations, no government of the Conservative and Unionist party should countenance any deal that compromises the political, economic or constitutional integrity of the United Kingdom.
All sides agree there should be no return to the borders of the past between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Similarly, jeopardising the UK’s own internal market is in no-one’s interest.
If regulatory alignment in a number of specific areas is the requirement for a frictionless border, then the prime minister should conclude this must be on a UK-wide basis.[/i]
So, that's the Scottish Tory Party calling for the exact same thing as the SNP, and the exact opposite of the Tory Party in Westminster.
Strange times indeed
And despite that, the real people involved on both sides continue to spin the line that progress will be made this month.
Like the progress someone was getting all excited over yesterday.
It is possible there will be a deal but given all the special interest groups (on both sides) whose positions are rather difficult to reconcile I dont exactly have my hopes up. Think the one clear thing is whatever deal is come up with the number of people actually happy with it are going to be quite low.
So the government is being propped up by 2 parties?
Not surprising at all Binners. Davidson has been consistent on this sort of line and she understands her electorate. Davidson is keeping her powder dry but her block of scots tories will be wielded if she is able to / needs to and is enough to pressure Westminster.
And despite that, the real people involved on both sides continue to spin the line that progress will be made this month.
Spin is all it is. Non of them have a scooby about how to actually reconcile the irreconcilable and May knows she does not have the electoral arithmetic to get stuff thru parliament when some of her party and the DUP will vote against any solution no0 matter what it is. IE DUP will not accept a north sea border, Rabids will not accept keeping aligned with the EU over the whole of the UK, Dublin will not accept a hard border. there is no solution to this that may an make unless she relies on labour votes
Oh look, more fake news - Farage had nothing to do with the bus
I wasn't referring to Farage. I was referring to Iain Duncan Smith.
People were led to believe that a sum of money would be diverted from the EU to the NHS. Now you tell me, is the NHS getting £350m per week or not?
Think the one clear thing is whatever deal is come up with the number of people actually happy with it are going to be quite low.
This.
Still don't know if more people would prefer continued membership over whatever the "real deal" ends up being, but it's the most relevant question to ask, if you're going to bang on about "respecting democracy".
So there you have it, lying or accussing someone of lying when they aren't doesn't constitute negative use of the forum and isn't considered a personal attack by the moderator who took the time and trouble to reply to my reports.If the moderators don't intervene, which one has now stated he/she won't, this thread is never going to rise above its current status of bitch fest and slanging match.
The thread that broke STW.
If true, then the forum is worse for it.
I wasn't referring to Farage. I was referring to Iain Duncan Smith.
His comments were on the Andrew Marr show on Sunday 26th June 2016
Which wasn’t “less than 24 hours after the referendum” as you claimed
More fake news
His comments were on the Andrew Marr show on Sunday 26th June 2016Which wasn’t “less than 24 hours after the referendum” as you claimed
More fake news
I'm delighted that you're enjoying yourself right now. You're being deliberately obtuse and are clearly revelling in it. Or are you just miffed because I reported you for personal abuse yesterday?
Are we getting £350m a week for the NHS or not, hmm?
So Ninfan / other outies. How are you going to solve the rights of citizens with reference to the ECJ and the NI border?
How are you going to solve the rights of citizens with reference to the ECJ and the NI border?
If you live north*of the border, you live in the U.K.
If you live south* of the border you live in the EU
We continue the common travel area, just like we have for decades before the EU existed. Since there are no land borders it’s imposiible to get to or from NI or Eire to U.K. or EU without going through passport control anyway, even today it’s not unusual to get asked for photo ID flying into Ireland from U.K., even though you don’t need a passport
*with recognition that the border isn’t a straight line, and that in places you could be wes, or east, or both, of the border
Ps, here’s the border between U.K. and Ireland operating whilst part of the EU
Oh my god, customs checks at the border, won’t somebody please do something about it?
So how do you solve the border issue?
Eire
🙄
So ninfan's not Irish or Northern Irish, yet he reckons he has the simple solution whereas people actually from the affected areas don't? Is that true?
Cos if so - wow..
People were led to believe that a sum of money would be diverted from the EU to the NHS
Well yes but it has been pointed out that "we didn't really mean that". So in the same way the idea of the referendum result being binding even though it was only advisory could also be dropped couldn't it?
If you want to know what the final deal is going to look like
Just see what May's current red lines are and inverse them.. 🙂
Everyone knows vote leave lied & the brexies have boxed themselves by failing to correct the lies since.
As reality comes crashing down on them they are having to deal with that. There's a frothing mob of right-wingers wailing that May is a traitor.
Throw in the DUP & it's the perfect shitstorm -who couldve foreseen that getting into bed with such honourable and pleasant people would turn out to be a bad idea 😆
Either way the Tories are trashing their reputation, im sure theyll salvage a deal in the end but across the UK & beyond, Tory Brexit is becoming another way of saying 'self-harming shitshow'
Ninfan - there are no customs checks at the NI border now.
Are you saying that it needs to be a hard border at the NI / republic border? Considered by most a breach of the GFA and unacceptable ie will be vetoed by Dublin.
So that is no solution