Enjoying the tour but.... « Singletrack Forum

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Enjoying the tour but....

40 posts & 24 voices | Started 10 months ago by nicko74 | Latest reply from bikebouy

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nicko74 - Member

This genuinely isn't a troll, not trying to be funny or any such. I'm enjoying the tour, and ITV4s catchup every night, but I feel over the last couple of years that I've started to lose some of the excitement, due to (possible) doping.

Contador - convicted of (minor) doping; the Astana guy today who made a charge for the lead but tailed off - suspended for a couple of years for doping. Those are just the ones we know about, and it does seem to taint my perception of the rest of them, and of the race in general.

It's depressing, and takes the edge off the excitement. There's no real solution I guess, but am I just being naive? Given that nothing's proven, but there are always hints, does anyone else still watch but without that fresh-faced excitement of old?

Posted 10 months ago #
jeffcapeshop - Member

i know what you mean, i long for the good old days when everyone was doping. evened the field.

Posted 10 months ago #
steve_b77 - Member

What about the god of thunder sticking with the climbers despite his relative heft

Posted 10 months ago #
mrmo - Member

humans and breaking rules, inseparable. Yes some cyclists dope, but so do tennis players, footballers, etc etc. People lie on CV's it is just how some people behave.

Posted 10 months ago #
Surrounded By Zulus - Member

I would hazard a guess that cycling is one of the cleanest sports out there. I do think that there should be a zero tolerance approach to doping though. One strike and thats you out for life.

Posted 10 months ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

Cleaner than it used to be perhpas but one of the cleanest sports? no way

Posted 10 months ago #
thekingisdead - Member

I can understand your post, I always have to check myslelf after seeing an incredible performance in Le Tour with "I hope he's clean".

but.....

but I feel over the last couple of years that I've started to lose some of the excitement, due to (possible) doping.

After the last couple of years? Its been going on forever!

Posted 10 months ago #
mrmo - Member

TJ what makes you think it isn't one of the cleanest sports?

Posted 10 months ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

the lack of rigor in testing and bannings, the number of positive tests, the culture of doping that is now fading but has been prevelaent.

I saw a list of the top ten finishers in the TDF that had subsequently been found out doping - a huge amount of them.

Posted 10 months ago #
mrmo - Member

Operacion puerto named 200 people, 50 were cyclists the rest athletes, footballers and tennis players, the only measures were against the cyclists, look at Track and Field and the number of positives over the years, plenty of stories going around about italian and spanish footballers,

Yes there is an issue in cycling but in part cycling is its own worst enemy by trying to solve the problem.

Posted 10 months ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

Do you really believe that? Cycling has been really slow in getting strict drug testing - far slower than other sports and look at the contador situation.

Yes there is drug cheats in other sports but around half of the last ten years top ten TDF finishers have failed drug tests or other wise been know to have doped

Cycling authorities have been very slow in getting a strict drug testing regime although it is in place now.

Posted 10 months ago #
paulosoxo - Member

TandemJeremy - Member
Cleaner than it used to be perhpas but one of the cleanest sports? no way
POSTED 38 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

I would argue the amount of bans proves how tight they are with this. When was a footballer last banned? Are you suggesting that footballers don't dope?

Posted 10 months ago #
mrmo - Member

Do you really believe that? Cycling has been really slow in getting strict drug testing - far slower than other sports and look at the contador situation.

Slower than what sports? It has not been the best, but compared to many it is far better, and if you look at the US for the tolerance of drugs in baseball and football, and the widespread abuse in athletics. Look at Europe and what you see is coverups in most sports.

Money talks.

The Contador situation is a joke though, and for better or worse should have been sorted along time ago, but the problem isn't the cycling authorities it is CAS.

Top ten in the 2010 TdF

1 Alberto Contador (ESP) Astana
2 Andy Schleck (LUX) Team Saxo Bank
3 Denis Menchov (RUS) Rabobank
4 Samuel Sánchez (ESP) Euskaltel-Euskadi
5 Jurgen Van Den Broeck (BEL) Omega Pharma-Lotto
6 Robert Gesink (NED) Rabobank
7 Ryder Hesjedal (CAN) Garmin-Transitions
8 Joaquim Rodríguez (ESP) Team Katusha
9 Roman Kreuziger (CZE) Liquigas-Doimo
10 Chris Horner (USA) Team RadioS

So who are the 5 declared druggies in that lot?

Posted 10 months ago #
convert - Member

Do you really believe that? Cycling has been really slow in getting strict drug testing - far slower than other sports

Do you remember how many years Paul Radcliffe wore a red ribbon in a one woman campaign to get blood testing used within athletics. This was over 10 years AFTER cycling had started using it.

Agree though - it is/was riff. I remember a very well known GB track and road cyclist that has just slipped out of the limelight into semi retirement in the last couple of years offering me a whole range of gear out of the back of his old red BMW (those around at the time will know who I'm talking about!) when we were both late teens/ early 20's. It was just the way it was though - you knew if you made it out of the British ranks into even the minor continental teams (way way lower than TdF teams - only one step up from club racing) it would be virtually expected of you by your manager. Then it started slipping into the next level down - the young guys trying to make it to the bottom rung. I was never going to be that good so never an issue for me but must have been difficult as a very young pro just starting out.

One thing those looking in probably don't realise is how little comparative difference it makes - it won't turn a middle aged IT consultant weekend mountain biker into a hitter In fact I would challenge anyone on here (bar a few maybe) to even notice that they had taken it in terms of performance. All the TdF guys, even the juiced ones are phenomenal athletes that train harder and can hurt themselves more than any of us could possibly imagine.

I just take the TdF at face value now and compare and contrast the riders as competitive packages as they roll up to the line irrespective of how their performance was come by (training, genetics, equipment, juice).

Posted 10 months ago #
crazy-legs - Member

TJ, you're exaggerating the problem. Cycling is (now) one of those sports that's on the edge of the public perception but without the impact of (say) Wimbledon and certainly without the money of F1 or football. The reason it's on the edge of public awareness is because of the big doping scandals so everyone just thinks "oh they must be doping".

Only last week two N.Koreans and a Colombian keeper tested positive for doping in the women's soccer World Cup and yet there's been no mention at all in the mainstream media.

Cycling now is FAR cleaner than it has been in the past and yes, it created it's own problems by turning a blind eye to it for so long. But unlike a lot of other sports, it's doing its best to clean up it's act.

You should have heard the comments from a visiting delegation representing certain large well known football teams when they found out about the drug testing that cyclists were required to undergo. There was a grand plan to get that same procedure put in place across all sports with one independant body doing the same tests - football pointblank refused and it never went any further - without the backing (and money) from a big sport like football it couldn't succeed, they weren't interested in it due to the damage it would have done to pro football.

Posted 10 months ago #
jonb - Member

I agree with the opening post to some extent. A few years ago I swore I'd just ditch the whole thing as it was a farce. THere were a few years in a row where the person on the top of the podium in Paris was later disqualified for a doping offence. There were also some heroic comebacks (Flotd Landis springs to mind) where you later found out that it wasn't passion and determination but blood and drugs.

Still there are clean guys out there winning things these days. We have some exceptional British riders in the Peleton, some up and coming stars. As always there are some real characters as well. I'm quite glad Contador was held up in that crash because if he was a run away winner like many suspected it would have been terrible come September (?) when they finally get round to deciding what to do with him.

Decisions on doping need to be swift and harsh. Deliberate attempts to improve performance should carry a lifetime ban. Accidental cases should maybe carry the same 2 year ban as now (i.e. proving you took medication without realising it had a banned sustance in which does still happen a fair amount).

Posted 10 months ago #
ianv - Member

Personally I dont see the big deal with taking performance enhancing drugs. The tour (and all brutal multi day cycle events) would be less interesting without them. It seems pretty hypocritical to me that people want good competitive racing day in day out and then moan about drug taking.

Marathon runners race two or three a year max, but pro cyclists race everyday for significant portions of the year. They are being driven to take something by the very people who demonise them when they get caught.

Posted 10 months ago #
MrOvershoot - Member

I think Ianv has probably made the main point.
Pro level cycling is a brutal profession & in the early days the only way to survive was chemical assistance, this has obviously evolved over the years but the basic premise is the same. I'm sure someone else will come up with another "sport" that is as consistently hard but the amount of hours these guys spend riding is staggering.
This is not an excuse but a reason why?

"Cycling isn't a game, it's a sport. Tough, hard and unpitying, and it requires great sacrifices.
One plays football, or tennis, or hockey. One doesn't play at Cycling."

Jean de Gribaldy

I remember that visit Crazy Legs, IIRC their comment was "we could never get the players to agree to that" over the level of testing

Posted 10 months ago #
mrmo - Member

And just to finish the point.

You want a job next season you better do well, if you want to pay your bills, put a bit aside, get picked for the best races to get exposure and maybe a renewal or a better contract.

If you look at Pro-cyclists they are all on "something", it is simply a matter of how close to the line do you go.

Something varies from recovery drinks through caffeine to chemicals like creatine and onwards.

Posted 10 months ago #
Elfinsafety - Member

Contador - convicted of (minor) doping; the Astana guy today who made a charge for the lead but tailed off - suspended for a couple of years for doping. Those are just the ones we know about

[cough]David Millar[/cough]

And in what way has Contador bin 'convicted'? AFAIK, he's not actually currently 'guilty' of anything....

Posted 10 months ago #
Munqe-chick - Member

Why is blood doping banned, but living and training at altitude (which has the same effect) not? Is blood doping not just allowing flatlanders a chance to level the playing field with those that have the luxury/opportunity of living in, say, Boulder?

I'm against doping but when you get beyond obvious definitions (eg. anything involving a hyperdermic, which have all been banned this year) what other deliberate aids or techniques should be considered?

I also agree that cycling is more heavily policed than other sports, and other organising bodies are where cycling was in the really bad old days (ie. knowing denial as all that matters are the results).

Interesting article here, analysing the podium placings from the last 15 years. Depressing reading and has made me warm to Cadel Evans.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/06/news/the-explainer-that-questionable-tour-de-france-podium_176880

Posted 10 months ago #
Elfinsafety - Member

Why is blood doping banned, but living and training at altitude (which has the same effect) not? Is blood doping not just allowing flatlanders a chance to level the playing field with those that have the luxury/opportunity of living in, say, Boulder?

I have often wondered this. I spose it's cos one is naturally acheivable, and the other requires medical intervention.

Very good point though.

Personally, I don't see blood doping as naughty as taking drugs.

Posted 10 months ago #
RealMan - Member

Why is blood doping not allowed but training is????

Posted 10 months ago #
Elfinsafety - Member

Why are riders allowed to have pain-killing injections if they get injured, rather than just having to grin and bear it?

Et Cetera, Et Cetera, Et Cetera.....

Ad Infinitum, Ad Nauseum.

Cogito Ergo Sum.

In Vino Veritas.

Marcus In Via Ambulat.

Elfin In Forum Orat.

Posted 10 months ago #
nicko74 - Member

What about the god of thunder sticking with the climbers despite his relative heft

Well quite, but I didn't want to turn the thread into a big long slagfest.

And in what way has Contador bin 'convicted'? AFAIK, he's not actually currently 'guilty' of anything....

Ah, my mistake. He was found to have been doping, convicted or not. But then you start to wonder - Schleck powered through the time trial last year; and once you start wondering, you kinda see it everywhere. As someone said, any time someone puts in a great performance, your second thought is 'doping'.

Interesting point about football though - my boss chats about teams doping wholesale: and we're talking big teams....

Posted 10 months ago #
Elfinsafety - Member

Does your boss have any actual evidence of this?

Posted 10 months ago #
forzafkawi - Member

What professional sport isn't becoming boring and repetitive now?

Posted 10 months ago #
Munqe-chick - Member

realman, living and training at altitude gives more of an advantage than doing the same level of training at sea level, and the benefit of altitude is the same as blood doping. Chris Boardman tried to replicate the benefits by building a hyperbaric chamber in his house for his hour record attempt.

Blood doping-artificial temporary elevation of red blood cells
hyperbaric chamber-artificial temporary elevation of red blood cells
altitude training-natural temporary elevation of red blood cells

So something is acceptable because it is natural, even if it is only available to a small number of riders by virtue of place of birth or financial wealth?

I don't believe altitude training should be banned, I'm asking the question where the line is drawn on performance-enhancing techniques? This year in order to combat doping (and cover/excuses for doping) they have banned any intervention involving injection. It used to be acceptable to have vitamin injections, which then became a pseudonym for doping. Vitamin supplements arent noteworthy in themselves but injection has sinister overtones.

Is using a hyperbaric chamber cheating because its artificial, or acceptable because it's not a medically intrusive technique?

Posted 10 months ago #
nicko74 - Member

heh, him personally no, but there is (unproven) chat about some of the big Italian teams having a large number of the team on various performance-enhancing regimes. But I guess that's the thing, unless testing is obvious and transparent for the public, the whispers start...

Posted 10 months ago #
crazy-legs - Member

MC - altitude training stimulates the naturally occuring hormone EPO to produce more red blood cells but the effect is limited - the body kind of self regulates to stop the blood getting too thick and the effect wears off within a couple of weeks anyway.

Using artificial EPO circumvents all that natural self-regulation and give much more of an advantage, sustainable for as long as you keep taking it without all the expense and hassle of spending your nights in a ski station.

Posted 10 months ago #
mrmo - Member

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football-drugs-in-serie-a---italy-sinking-deeper-into-scandal-1178042.html

I know it is an old report but i can't find anything newer that either disproves or reinforces.

@munqe_chick, this is my point all riders do what they can to maximise their chances, sometimes they will go over the line.

Posted 10 months ago #
slowrider - Member

I think the radios are worse for the sport than doping

Posted 10 months ago #
charlie the bikemonger - Member

I don't like retired tdf pros making money from interviews, books and tv comentry work, based on their winning history, their credentials, their personal brand.... When they achieved it with doping.

Not pointing the finger at anyone in particular but you possibly could point your finger at almost all of them.

There is a great book called breaking the chain. Read it and discover how widespread it was. The mechanics and team managers, drivers etc etc were using illegals to keep going.

I have three gold medals from team enduro events and I can tell you I was a bit pissed for all those wins. Would love to see the tdf with a compulsory stout at every village.

Posted 10 months ago #
cynic-al - Member

IMO it's naive not to think that the vast majority aren't doping EDIT or that we'll ever know exactly who is and who isn't.

I just ignore the issue, and the racing is still as exciting.

Posted 10 months ago #
LapSteel - Member

They're obviously all pissed or on something...they're always falling off!

Posted 10 months ago #