Its a reasonable proposal, as long as it is across the board and covers 'all' the public sector, from Teachers to Nurses to MP's. But like most things, the hardest bit will be the transition, and of course TJ having his salary reduced 
In a way benefits are already covered as Housing Benefit is regionalised, ie based upon rent.
So, what you're saying is that in a democratic country, the tory parties policies are fundamentally more palatable to the majority of the public than those of the left wing.
When it comes to taxation, yes. When it comes to trashing the likes of NHS and other services, no.
People like a bit of socialism when it comes to paying for something collectively, knowing that they could not afford to have it individually.
Well, like I say DruidH - thats one of the constraints you get from being a lefty living in a democratic country - every few years you get to see your dreams crushed as the majority of the public remind you that your policies are bollocks 
Zulu-Eleven - Member
the majority of the public remind you that your policies arebollocksnot wanted
every few years you get to see your dreams crushed as the majority of the public remind you that your policies are bollocks
Much lollage.
Zulu-Eleven - Member
the majority of the public in the south of England remind you that your policies arebollocksnot wanted
so more money to the rich and the richest areas, less money to the poorer.
Terh south east already sucks huge sums out of the economy - and they want more?
Its hardly a surprise but it is vindictive nasty and unfair - there is already London weighting which is unfair in itself
This should go hand in hand with regional levels of income tax and NI too. If the pay of the public sector workers are lower in certain areas then so should costs and this should be reflected in the tax etc that those areas pay. Bet that won't be altered by Gideon though...
Have you suddenly become a convert to democracy Zulu-Eleven ?
Not long ago you were describing it as a "silly little experiment" which you wanted to get "rid of"
Zulu-Eleven - MemberDark ages, No Ernie, not at all - far more of a fan of a military coup returning HRH to power and getting rid of this silly little experiment in "democracy"
Posted 2 years ago
Zulu-Eleven - MemberI said that we should get rid of this silly little experiment in "democracy" - and I stand by the argument that its a failed experiment, since we don't have democracy, we still have a division between classes of legislators and legislatees.
Posted 4 months ago
Have you suddenly become a convert to democracy Zulu-Eleven ?
Now I understand him giving advice out to Druid about feeling crushed. You would feel the same way too if the majority still wanted democracy and thought your little coup d'etat idea was bollocks.
druidh,
what's the source for that graphic above please?
I'm very interested to know what they based that on, and how recent it is.
It points to some pretty strange positions, such as Labour being between The conservatives to their right and the Lib Dems to their left. Its almost as if they'd form an easier coalition with either of those parties than the present situation.
Does this mean our democracy is a farce?
Or is the pursuit of power more important than political differences?
loum - that was generated for the 2010 General Election. As to how "accurate" it is, that's anyones guess!
http://www.politicalcompass.org/ukparties2010
This is an interesting graphic too..
Zulu-Eleven - Member
I said that we should get rid of this silly little experiment in "democracy" - and I stand by the argument that its a failed experiment, since we don't have democracy, we still have a division between classes of legislators and legislatees.Posted 4 months ago
Thats really interesting Ernie - the fact that you chose to crop the context of my comment, but leave the header and "posted 4 months ago" footer in to give the impression that that was what I said, without the context. A quite interesting example of you deliberately manipulating peoples comments to present a different impression.
Tell me Ernie - why did you choose to go so far as to keep the header and footer in, but remove the orhte relevant context?
Do you believe in democracy, or universal suffrage?Do we have democracy in the UK? Since you're defending it, I would imagine you think so... but proletarian democracy is not just representative democracy, but participatory democracy
I said that we should get rid of this silly little experiment in "democracy" - and I stand by the argument that its a failed experiment, since we don't have democracy, we still have a division between classes of legislators and legislatees. Parliamentary democracy was never supported by Lenin, Marx or Engels.
You should be all for my argument Ernie - your failure to realise that parliamentary democracy is a continuation of the class division that prevents a democracy of the proletariat shows that, despite a lifetime of espousing the ideals and goals of the left, you've never come to truly understand what you're asking for!
Interesting that you should choose to misrepresent the context TJ... that my comment was about "this failed experiment" in "democracy" not out of a lack of support for democracy, but a lack of support for the pseudo democratic representative parliamentary system that we had in this country. Very different construction of the argument in a very different context.
Does this mean our democracy is a farce?
It means that the political compass graph is a farce.
Do the test yourself, you might be surprised with the result :
Ernie I often don't agree with your views but that post up there is rather insightful and rather gets to the nub of the probolems in British politics.
I think most people are rather right wing in this country to the extent that most of us are selfish with a small s. Those of us that earn and contribute would rather hold onto more of our earnings, even when that means poorer services, which we're happy to accept as long as it's not the services that directly affect us.
I think what we're looking for is a right wing party that isn't as obviously elitist (and I mean that in a nepotistic sort of way, nothing wrong in genuine aspirations)as the Tories but instead is seen to be fair, to take unpopular decisions when they are the right thing to do, reward and promote people contributing to society and being a little disapproving of those that choose not to take some responsibility for themselves. But as you've said the people holding the real power are the floating voters, many of whom are floating because they don't really think too hard about the bigger issues.
Shame the Lib Dems fluffed up changing the voting system and set back proportional representation ten years.
A quite interesting example of you deliberately manipulating peoples comments to present a different impression.
I didn't manipulate any comment of yours - I copied and pasted what you wrote !
Yes you're right, I didn't copy and paste the whole post - why would I do that ? I just copied and pasted the bit which was relevant.
And yeah, I left out the bit where you lectured me on what I should believe ..... are you surprised ?
So anyway, what does all this other stuff prove ? It's very clear that up until today you had a very contemptuous attitude towards British democracy, but now this evening you're singing its praises. Hypocrite.
Ah, its my attitude to democracy thats contemptuous is it?
But you're the one that says the Falklands should be handed back to the Argentines against the will of the islanders, and that Gay marriage should be legalised despite the majority of the public being against it 
Anyway - about the ending of National Pay Rates.....
Seeing as the bankers screwed the country, and now are owned by the state,perhaps we should reduce their pay to that of the lowest street cleaners.
I think most people are rather right wing in this country to the extent that most of us are selfish with a small s.
I actually disagree, I think most people are a bit more left-wing than they imagine. That 'political compass questionnaire' certainly suggests that, although I have little faith in its overall conclusion.
In my experience people tend to tow the line which is offered to them by the press, it's the easiest thing to do - specially if you find politics fairly boring. But when people are engaged in argument and listen to opposing opinions, my experience suggests that they tend to be both more liberal and rather more left-wing than their starting position.
The problem occurs because they generally tend to hear only one side of the argument, and they lack the motivation to actively seek other opinions. And the problem isn't helped by lazy Labour politicians who lack the courage to make a stand.
The only thing which is likely to change the Labour Party's position is if they start seeing their support hemorrhaging to left parties such as the Greens. You'd be surprised how quickly self-serving career politicians in the Labour Party are prepared to change their position when required.
But you're the one that says the Falklands should be handed back to the Argentines against the will of the islanders
I've never said that !
BTW, I find it interesting that you should say "handed back"......changed our position again have we ?
Druidh, thank you.
I've seen the test a while back (and forgot the website) but did n't remember those graphics.
Ernie, The test may well be a farce too, but that doesn't prove that our democracy isn't.
This could be great news for public sector workers who are located on the SE fringe and suffer inflated house prices but who don't get any weighting for it. For example, Cambridge or Bristol based civil servants could benefit massively, as house prices are near Londons but wages much lower.
We will soon be doffing our caps to the lords of the manor.
This government are intent on destroying any public service.
Remember Beeching and the railways! same for public services - there will not be any, and no chance of bringing them back later.
Going back 100 years
rich get richer the poor get poorer
Live in London get rich, live eleswhere get poor
Live in London get rich, live eleswhere get poor
csb - MemberThis could be great news for public sector workers who are located on the SE fringe and suffer inflated house prices but who don't get any weighting for it. For example, Cambridge or Bristol based civil servants could benefit massively, as house prices are near Londons but wages much lower.
I don't think this is being brought in to raise wages in the public sector
Bridport and Lyme Regis are known as 'Notting Hill on Sea'because of all the Londoners [DFLs] buying their 2nd homes or selling up in London and moving to the good life!
I agree there is a lot of poverty in London and there are many very low paid workers - they will just get poorer under this government - but the 'quick buck' boys will get richer!
thekingisdead - no, but they may lift the pay freeze sooner to recognise higher costs in these places
It means that the political compass graph is a farce.Do the test yourself, you might be surprised with the result :
druidh - MemberAnyway - about the ending of National Pay Rates.....
if it's done well, there could be benefits.
if it's done badly, it'll be awful.
it won't be done well.
Apparently I'm standing alongside The Dalai Lama!!! 
It's the perfect way to keep the poor and less well educated in exactly that position and widen the north south divide. So much for the exit london strategy..... When I was in my 20s not voting was such a bad thing, you should use your vote or you can't complain but now there's genuinely no decent able honest party to bloomin well vote for!
Sorry - just joined in, forgive me if I repeat what others have said:
Obvious really -
a) let's all have a race to the bottom and compete to see who can have the most shit wages and conditions within the next 5 years, thereby destroying all that has been gained by struggling for collective rights over the last 100 years;
b) let's try to use the force of envy to pit private sector worker against public sector worker, in order to;
c) distract attention from the fact that the capitalist system caused the mess we're in, and that to change anything we need collective action by ALL groups of workers.
Happy now, Georgie and Dave?
Happy now, Georgie and Dave?
Short term yes, I'm sure they will be very happy indeed.
However the long term prognosis suggests that should they succeed in their obvious agenda the actual consequences of their greed-driven class war will wipe the smiles off their faces.
Quite simply because their precious capitalist system can't function effectively under conditions of extreme inequality, as it descends into a mortal crises caused by the paradox of overproduction and underconsumption.
Something which was recognised many generations ago but which today is ignored by a new generation of right-wing politicians who choose to be driven by short term results and greed. In much the same way incidentally as the bankers who got us in this mess were.
It's surprising how otherwise intelligent men gripped by a gambling addiction can make such irrational decisions even though they are fully aware of the likely disastrous consequences of their actions. The power of greed and risk-fueled excitement is responsible for some quite astonishing decisions, specially when the stakes are high.
It will all end in tears. As it always does.
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