Was driving to the Peak District with my parents yesterday and there were a lot of roadies about. My parents live in Kintyre, so don’t have a lot of exposure to roadies and were making the usual noises that non-cyclists make, e.g “shouldn’t be riding 2 abreast”, etc. Decided to do my best to educate them, explaining why they were doing what they were doing (safer that way, shortens the pack, etc).

I’m making decent progress when we get to Snake Pass and come upon a pack of 3 roadies with a Punto waiting to pass behind. They’re going at a fair rate (~30 mph) so the Punto ends up waiting a minute or 2 to pass (at a safe distance and very considerately) and we end up behind them. The Punto then comes to another roadie who is slower than this lot and is waiting for somewhere safe to pass when the pack of 3 decide to squeeze past the Punto on the left hand side – the gap was very narrow, I’d have hesitated before going for it while filtering through slow traffic. The Punto then has to pass both the slow cyclist and the pack of 3 again – no punishment passes or beeps (not that it’s ever justified).

I found it really annoying as:

(a) the only reason for them to pass was so they didn’t have to slow down, but apparently it’s ok for them to slow cars down. It was inconsiderate, and I’d imagine the Punto got a fright when 3 cyclists squeezed through a gap they didn’t think existed. All it would have taken was for them to twitch slightly and the roadies would have been in the ditch (at best).

(b) all my parents remember from that drive is that roadies are an inconsiderate bunch of eejits, despite the fact that it was the actions of 3 out of perhaps 30 that we passed that day.

As a cyclist, I would love it if everyone could be more considerate of us, and I’m well aware that the inconsiderateness of drivers is vastly more likely to result in death or serious injury than that of cyclists. However, if some of us act like tw*ts, unfortunately the rest of us get tarred with that brush too. I know that isn’t right, but we have to accept that we’re a minority on the road, so it takes far more effort on our part to “earn” respect*.

While it’s difficult for us to educate motorists and “earn” respect, it’s very easy to lose that respect.

Rant over.

They undertook traffic that was moving slowly.

I have to say I pretty much agree with your rant!

What lots of people mean by “respect” is obey the law and not try to kill you. Often used in the context of “why should I give you any more space than brushing your elbow with my wing mirror, some cyclists jump red lights, so you’ve lost my respect”.

That “respect” shouldn’t be earned in the first place, it should be given by default to everyone, by everyone. We wouldn’t say “oh well, what do you expect given the way some of them act” about much else.

I don’t want people in cars to overtake me while thinking “there goes the greatest man that ever lived, I’ve got so much respect for him.”, I just want to them to obey the law and overtake safely. Even if I’m riding like an arse (which I don’t, IMO, of course, and it sounds like the 3 roadies were) that doesn’t mean a driver trying to overtake me can do something dangerous and/or illegal.

Respect does not have to be earned.

You can walk out into the street, see hundreds of people whom you’ve never met before in your life, and you can respect them. You can let them do what they’re doing, wear what they’re wearing, say what they’re saying. It’s perfectly normal and natural and – by and large – everyone does this. It’s basic respect that we all have for each other by default.

Yet, somehow, many people seem to have a philosophical problem with extending this to the idea of driving in such a way as to simply ensure that these people stay alive.
http://beyondthekerb.org.uk/2013/10/11/the-most-basic-respect/

They squeezed through a tiny gap at about 20 mph to then cycle at 30 mph in a 50 mph limit. If the gap had been bigger, then fair enough, but it was tiny. I cycle to work every day and I undertake slow moving traffic every day, and IMO it was an incredibly risky and stupid move that could easily have ended in an accident.

I PROBABLY wouldn’t have done what the roadies did but then again I might have given the day, the route etc. If you know the Punto is going to be repeatedly held up going up this road, why not pass so you can get on. I don’t have screaming fits when motorbikes do it.

Respect for rules and protocols is a different meaning to respect a person. Respecting rules means the same as obeying.

I don’t have screaming fits when motorbikes do it.

You should, at least internally. Undertaking a car waiting g to overtake? Insanity.

That “respect” shouldn’t be earned in the first place, it should be given by default to everyone, by everyone.

I 100% agree with you, but unfortunately that’s not always the way it works in the real world. I’ve enough experience of idiot drivers and punishment passes that I was almost surprised when the Punto didn’t give them one.

If you know the Punto is going to be repeatedly held up going up this road, why not pass so you can get on

The road was clear ahead of that one cyclist, and after we passed both groups we weren’t held up again. Equally, one could ask “why pass someone when you know they’re just going to have to pass you again because they’re faster?”

I don’t have screaming fits when motorbikes do it

The difference being, given a clear road, they’re faster than you 99% of the time

Agree with OP, and it’s this kind of impatient and inconsiderate riding that makes “cyclists” appear as irresponsible and dangerous as the motorists we like to flame on here.

Do unto others. Especially if you want the others to do unto you.

the only reason for them to pass was so they didn’t have to slow down,

IIRC that is why we pass slower moving vehicles …what’s your point?

after we passed both groups we weren’t held up again

SEE

I was not there so I really dont know but I think I would not slow down for a car held up by a cyclist personally but it depends on how dangerous the filter was. If it was at very slow speed from a very considerat cycle friendly driver then i suspect I would pass.
The other thing is if they went on the outside then they could not be certain the car would not try to overtake the bike so probably the safer option even if you disapprove

IIRC that is why we pass slower moving vehicles …what’s your point?

That they’re slower overall so they’re just going to have to get passed again? It’s pretty inconsiderate – for an example without any motorists, I sometimes get passed by proper roadies on my commute who I then catch at the lights. As I’m on flats, I can get away much faster than them and pass them while they clip in. But I don’t, because I know they’ll be faster than me overall and will have to pass me.

Makes life easier for everyone!

I think one of the biggest steps forward that could be made for cycling in this country would be to convince the general public that ‘cyclists’ aren’t some sort of uniform group who all know each other.

See a bad driver out on the road, “he/she’s an idiot”, see a bad cyclist “cyclists are idiots”.

So because the faster roadies were “making progress”, they could perform an apparently unwise manoeuvre between other moving road users?

Yeah, we all love that defence when drivers use it. Anyone who can’t see the hypocrisy in some of the comments made to defend some cyclists actions on the roads need to take a step back and think of the bigger picture.

That they’re slower overall so they’re just going to have to get passed again? It’s pretty inconsiderate

Facepalm
You do know the car just overtook the cyclists and now has to be overtaken by the cyclist in this example and you are blaming the cyclist for doing what the car just did.

SO I can never ever overtake a car anywhere, even a stationary one in traffic, just because it will overtake me again at some point in the next 20 miles, Even if this holds me up by say 45 minutes just sitting there?

We all want to make progress when i can get past a car safely i do and when the car can get past me safely it does.

We all know where threads like this end up and this one got there quicker than most

You do know the car just overtook the cyclists and now has to be overtaken by the cyclist in this example and you are blaming the cyclist for doing what the car just did.

My point was that they performed a dangerous and inconsiderate move to then have to get overtaken a minute down the road. If it had been safe to get past, then fine, if there had been an amount of slow-moving traffic that meant they’d be able to filter through, then fine. But the only thing they really achieved was maybe a few seconds off their Strava time while convincing some drivers that roadies are tw*ts.

And that was really my overall point – I’d been trying to explain to my parents why roadies were riding as they were, and was making progress. Then the actions of 3 out of 30 makes them think that cyclists are idiots and that’s all they remember and will probably tell their friends about.

I know we shouldn’t all be lumped together, but unfortunately when you’re a minority it’s very easy for people to assume that the observed poor behavior of some of that group reflects all of it.

Your right.

Undertaking a car (which is itself waiting to overtake) at speed, narrow gap, very tight road?

Unjustifiable.
Very amusing, but a bit sad too, watching people try.

I wouldn’t want someone to do that to me, so I wouldn’t do it to them.

Something about that road turns people into morons.
Guilty of it myself when I was younger.

Just wondering where the Highway Code suggest passing on the left in that situation Junkyard?

It’s the must overtake if someone is going slower attitude no matter what the situation or context. It bad when drivers do it without thinking or looking ahead and it bad when cyclist do it without thinking and looking.

Exactly. We can’t expect entitled, selfish people to behave any differently whether in cars, on road bikes or on a MTB coming up behind a slower rider in a trail centre.

OP needs his parents to recognise cyclists as humans first and foremost, with all our inherent flaws and problems present and correct. If anything, that will help them distinguish between idiot riders and sensible riders in the same way they already distinguish between shit drivers and good ones rather than just condemn us all for the sins of the minority.

You do know the car just overtook the cyclists and now has to be overtaken by the cyclist in this example and you are blaming the cyclist for doing what the car just did.

No, the cyclists UNDERTOOK the car. Even if the cyclists had overtaken, they’d now be queue jumping at the very least – and inappropriately because as said they’re just going to have to be re-overtaken again. And that’s not about rules, it’s about common courtesy and sense.

I think one of the biggest steps forward that could be made for cycling in this country would be to convince the general public that ‘cyclists’ aren’t some sort of uniform group who all know each other.

Yes.

I once had a motorist try and convince me I should be grateful to him because he’d let *another* cyclist out of a junction.

Sounds like bad riding but the important thing is that you AND your parents learn not to tar all cyclists with a brush tainted by the actions of a few.

Do you lose “respect” for all drivers when you see one behaving like a knob?

(b) all my parents remember from that drive is that roadies are an inconsiderate bunch of eejits, despite the fact that it was the actions of 3 out of perhaps 30 that we passed that day.

Ignoring the rights or the wrongs of the cyclists – sounds like you’ve a bit of work to do on helping your parents understand that 1:10 is not representative.

Oh, and there’s plenty of cyclists in Kintyre, perhaps not packs of roadies, but plenty of tourers etc.

but we have to accept that we’re a minority on the road, so it takes far more effort on our part to “earn” respect*.

Are we a “minority”? There are more bikes sold in the UK than private cars (approx 3.6M bikes, v 2.5M cars in 2014). 43% of the population aged 5+ own or have access to a bike. Now 75% of households (not individuals) have access to a car. “Only” about 45% have two or more cars – would you describe households with more than one car as a minority?

Out of interest which other minorities have to “earn” respect?

See Rule 163.

My understanding of the Highway Code is that you can only overtake on the left if what you are passing is indicating to turn right, though there is an exception “stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may pass on the left.”

It would take a strained (or “purposive” depending on your approach to these things) interpretation of this to argue it allows overtaking on the left on a single carriageway in any circumstances. I suppose you could argue that if there is room on the left for you to form a “slow moving queue” with your bike then it is OK for you to do so. A car following a slow cyclist could form the other “queue” I guess. But the words “slow moving” are important anyhow.

I can’t find an exception to the “overtake on the right” rule for when the vehicle you are overtaking is going slowly (other than the “moving slowly in queues point above), not even for cyclists, anyone else found one?

Sounds to me like the Punto driver wasn’t looking far enough ahead. Saw 3 cyclists in front, overtook but without looking far enough in front to say “oh, look, there’s another slower vehicle which I’ll end up stuck behind, there’s probably no point overtaking”.

Just crap driving, I get it all the time. See cyclist in front and the driver is immediately “cyclist, I MUST overtake NOW!”.

OK, maybe the Punto driver wasn’t quite that bad but overtaking cyclists on a descent like Snake is pretty stupid unless you can see you’ve got a good clear run out in front of them.

To be fair, how small the gap was or is, is all down to different peoples perspectives and interpretations.

It might not have been that bad.

Greyspoke, I think “lane” is pretty important from that as well. Just because you can squeeze through, doesn’t make it another lane.
This is a bit of an issue with cycle lane design, as it is normally on the left and conditions cyclist to think passing on the left is acceptable, but I digress.
OP will probably confirm if they were passing on the left in a cycle lane or just ignoring the Highway Code.

When a motorist drives badly or illegally, they are deemed a knob by sensible road users, although we will all probably see many examples of illegal driving on a journey and not even register them as they are so normalised.

When a cyclist behaves in the same way, it is used as an excuse to blame all cyclists, not just the individual. There seems to be a need to victimise all cyclists for the actions of a few even amongst cyclists.

Sounds like bad riding but the important thing is that you AND your parents learn not to tar all cyclists with a brush tainted by the actions of a few.

Do you lose “respect” for all drivers when you see one behaving like a knob?

Well, I’m a cyclist myself so I know we’re not all like that 😀

My parents are very reasonable people and hopefully this hasn’t had a huge impact on their opinion of cyclists. But incidents like this chip away at the overall perception of us, and unfortunately people find it very easy to apply the actions of a minority to the overall group. It would be great if we could change that and have everyone judge each cyclist as an individual. Unfortunately it seems to be hard-wired into humans to make such judgements, hence we get stereotypes, etc.

It’s the must overtake if someone is going slower attitude no matter what the situation or context.

I think this sums things up very well.

Just crap driving, I get it all the time. See cyclist in front and the driver is immediately “cyclist, I MUST overtake NOW!”.

Nope, the road was clear ahead when they passed, they just came round another bend a bit down the road and came upon another cyclist. And the driver waited for about 2 minutes to be able to pass the group safely – they were being very considerate. We lost sight of the Punto while we waited to pass the group, they just got held up on a twisty bit of road where they couldn’t pass safely.

OP will probably confirm if they were passing on the left in a cycle lane or just ignoring the Highway Code

No cycle lane, and they had to put themselves right on the edge of the road with maybe a foot or less between themselves and the Punto’s mirror. You’d get pissed off if a car passed you that close at that speed, so surely vice versa is just as bad.

Driving on the motorway Sat, I observed a white Kia SUV thing a few cars head, obviously being driven by a someone dangerous. He was all over the place, aggressive and erratic, lane changing constantly, cutting in front, causing others (including self) to brake. As luck would have he disappeared behind for a while. 5 mins later I was signalling into the middle lane, start moving over, and then I hear a horn and see this f*** undertaking me mid-manoeuvre. He blasts his horn, I blast mine, we’re both back in our lanes. I was shaken but he then decides to overtake me on the right, I glance across, see him screaming obscenities, and then he points at our car and then tries to shunt us sideways, Hazzard County stylee, forcing me to make an emergency lane change. Then he goes the other side and starts swearing at Mrs MR from the other side. Mrs MR tells me his wife is now shouting at him and he raises an open hand threatening to slap her (his wife). I glance at his progress, changing lanes up ahead for a while and then luckily it gets busier and we lose him.

Oddly, I do not blame other drivers, neither do I expect them to make space for me, make me tea and scones or smile at me in a bid to ‘undo’ the actions of other drivers. Motorists, I mean.

Driving in this morning on the A303. Lane two, passing cars in lane one. Lorry further ahead slowing on a hill. White Audi catching it up. Anticipating something erratic I ease off slightly. Audi swings into my lane, cutting me up, complete lack of planning, no indication.
Typical Audi driver!

You’d get pissed off if a car passed you that close at that speed, so surely vice versa is just as bad.

Yes, I would be annoyed if a car passed that closely.

But the people who did that have nothing to do with me. And the danger from a bike passing a car closely is orders of magnitude lower than the danger from a car passing a cyclist closely.

Again, the roadies sound like they did something silly, that I definitely wouldn’t have done. But they have nothing to do with me, you, or anyone else on this forum, or anyone else on a bike. If people decide they can drive dangerously around Jane Doe because three weeks ago they saw John Smith riding on the pavement then they’re a dangerous idiot. Whether that’s the world we live in or not, the problem is with the person handing out punishments for wrongs committed by someone perceived to be in the same group as the person being punished. It’s like a shotgun owner claiming that it’s OK to take potshots at his (Audi driving, Orange riding, wood burner owning 😉 ) IT contractor neighbour because he once got given bad advice at PC World. “Well, he’s got to earn respect, he needs to get the rest of the IT community to behave properly…”

See a bad driver out on the road, “he/she’s an idiot”, see a bad cyclist “cyclists are idiots”.

Are you sure? I’d say, not people become more specific “**** women drivers” “typical taxi driver” “bloody old people ” or the current favourite.

Typical Audi driver!

The car driver was pulling stupid overtaking move and the cyclists responded but in what sounded in a bit of a silly undertake.

Here is a problem:

Those motorists who don’t also cycle are less likely to understand the Highway Code where it relates to bicycles*, and more likely to confuse legitimate, safe and considerate riding (ie two abreast allows greater visibility, and for car drivers to overtake more safely and in a shorter time) with ‘illegal , unsafe and inconsiderate’ riding. ie “I came around the bend and then saw two idiot cyclists riding in the middle of the **** road chatting to each other, causing me to slam my brakes on!”

(*Fact courtesy of Pulled From My A55)

there was no way this thread was not going to turn into a bickerfest.

Sounds like the roadies pulled a daft pass (someone said cyclists are not allowed to undertake traffic? Give us a break) and one I most likely wouldn’t have done.
So yeah negative marks there.
Countered slightly with cyclists saw a gap they were obviously happy with and assuming it would have taken a convoluted chain of events to endanger anyone but themselves, they went for it, so my give-a-shitometer isn’t registering very much. It’s a bit different to a driver deciding how much space the cyclist needs (they aren’t the ones who suffer if they misjudge it)

The “earning respect” cobblers has already been dealt with.

Can I be the first to say…

STRAVA!!!

(someone said cyclists are not allowed to undertake traffic? Give us a break)

You are allowed to filter down the left of traffic in a queue or slowly moving, WHERE SAFE.

Undertaking a car doing 20mph at 30mph would seem to be neither of those two things!

molgrips agreed, but someone seemed to be saying all filtering was verboten.