[Closed] E-bike coverage grumble

Yawn

[img] [/img]

Does anyone else feel the same?

Here we go again 🙂

[img] [/img]

Looks to me like you are not in line with the changing times (which is fine) so maybe the magazine is not for you anymore.

No big deal, just read a different magazine

Lazy riders are probably lazy in other aspects of their riding, like maintaining our trails

you haven't ridden one then

I take all your points.

To be fair I feel the same about gnarduro

[img] [/img]

e-bikers aren't as bad as people who use uplifts. At least there is some skill in riding up the hill with assist. Trucks/Vans/Buses and the roads to support them also cause far more environmental damage.

I feel however , he has a very valid point but as I rarely read the mag due to the lack of mudguard reviews I'll get over it.

yah am sure the proliferation of e bikes will mean loads more people out in the woods at night when I do the majority of my mtbing.

less solitude

I'm with you OP, and I hate the way the magazines have started pushing them (lol!) As if they're the next big thing... which means they will be, and are, the next big thing... biking is about pushing yourself and achieving feats of physicality, not riding a motor bike ffs

E-bike coverage grumble

Niche, you're well into darkweb territory there

less solitude
- are you for real? do you just ride trail centres?

Yeah, I thought (s)he might be for real until that bit.

. biking [b]for me[/b] is about pushing yourself and achieving feats of physicality [b]and I'm not interested in what other people's motivation to get out on a bike is[/b]

Ftfy.

To be fair I feel the same about gnarduro

At least that is cycling though. I can't stand the whole groomed jumps thing, but I do accept it is considered part of mtbing.

E-bikes are a very grey area, probably deserve their own mag, or at least a supplement.

Wasn't there a survey on the front page of the site the result of which indicated that people were interested ebike coverage?

Personally, I'm not interested in ebikes.

Ebikes = Garlic bread!
Most of the erosion I've seen on trails is the brake bumps caused by people not having the skill to go round corners properly.

E-bikes are a very grey area, probably deserve their own mag, or at least a supplement.

Why?

I don't generally ride trail centres. I have ridden them, but I mostly ride in national park areas and AONBs. I've also ridden in the Hebrides, the Atlas Mountains, the Southern Alps, the Rockies and the Alps.

I don't get the point of your argument about solitude in trail centres?

Chipko, chill out. Like full suspension, trail centers, surf-style shorts, taxes and death, its going to happen, peace dude. Enjoy the tranquility and solitude of your hearts trail today, tomorrow you may be hit by a bus

I have far more issue with the (majority of?) MTBers who ride in a antisocial manner. Strava, riding on wet muddy trails cutting them up, who ride round puddles widening tracks rather than thru them, who ride alongside eroded trails widening the erosion and who don't follow the code of conduct for outdoor access. ~A special dislike for those who dig trails on public land. A far greater threat.

You know how MotoX and MTB are different things. Well I just just look at this as another choice. Maybe in a few yers we will see tracks(re-)opening all round the "home counties" for noise-free e-MotoX with no gravity needed.

Could be really great

I'm not particularly interested in ebikes either, because I'm not (yet) part of that demographic with large disposable income, health limitations and a desire to keep their lives active for as long as possible. I'm quite sure that I'll be one of them sometime in the next 25 years, apart from the money bit 🙂 I'll just turn over the page or scroll on for the time being.
I have tried one out and have surmised that the torque and wheelspin argument is unsubstantiated nonsense. It's definitely not on the quad/mx scale of trail damage, even somebody out of the saddle, mashing the pedals is worse.
I'm worrying more that the second hand market in nice manual drive full sussers is going to suffer in the long-term!

I'm considering cancelling my subscription in the hope that doing so might stem the flow of e-bike promotion.

e-bike or full suspension or hardtails or rigid bikes or single speeds or geared bikes.

Personally i hate chrome parts; particularly frames (i think early-midschool BMX has scared me) i'd like to read a magazine that's chrome free.

Have you ridden one? £10 i know the answer.

You know how MotoX and MTB are different things. Well I just just look at this as another choice. Maybe in a few yers we will see tracks(re-)opening all round the "home counties" for noise-free e-MotoX with no gravity needed.

Yep but if they want to abide by law they will be doing 15.5mph and will be pedaling any time they want power.

Sounds like shit motox to me.

It'll be like speed walking, trail_rat. Picture it : instant dsq if a tyre leaves the ground

It's just a bike. Does it matter?

I'm not interested in 29ers but I'd not flounce away from reading a magazine about it.

And, as usual, your interpretation of the erosion caused by these ebikes, because you've based your position on assumptions rather than facts or experience, is wrong. They cause less erosion because the application of power is more linear than a normal bike. The power is also pretty low.

This might seem rash, but I'm considering cancelling my subscription ....

It doesn't seem rash at all. If you don't enjoy the mag, don't subscribe, that's common sense.

.... in the hope that doing so might stem the flow of e-bike promotion

That, however, is just deluded.

Read it, or don't read it. But please realise that nobody apart from you gives a shit either way 😆

Singletrack readers are old and getting older and cannae hack the mountain biking any more so need off-road mobility scooters. Plus men 50+ have lots of cash to spend. Adverts. Business. Print Media changes blah blah blah

I'm considering cancelling my subscription in the hope that doing so might stem the flow of e-bike promotion.

I've got the latest issue in front of me. There's one (subtle) e-bike advert just inside the front cover (the bit that I usually flick straight past)... and literally no mention of e-bikes for the subsequent 113 pages. None at all.

There's an article about hand built steel frames, loads of riding in big landscapes on natural trails, heck, even a fatbike article (controversial), but aside from that one advert, it's basically like electrically assisted mountain bikes don't exist.

Are you quite sure we're talking about the same magazine?

For what it's worth I largely agree with you Op. But Singletrack is a business, and there's a large thread detailing how they might have to shut up shop 🙁 like it or not there seems to be an interest in ebikes. Perhaps that interest is what's needed to keep them in print.

It's also worth pointing out (again) that e-bikes have been a mature technology for three or four years now. If anything, you could argue that they're deliberately underrepresented in the mountain bike media. It's a bit like if magazines refused to acknowledge the existence of full suspension, or disc brakes.

Chipko Andolan - Member

2) Lazy riders are probably lazy in other aspects of their riding, like maintaining our trails

I'll field this one... Practically nobody does any meaningful trail work. People like [i]reading[/i] about trailbuilding and maintenance and they like that someone does it, we had 500 facebook views and a load of Likes last week but nobody turns up. 10 people at the last session and 8 of those have been doing it for years.

And that's OK- it's voluntary, we do it because we want to. But the proportion of mountain bikers that do trailwork rounds to 0%, regardless of what bike they ride. And it's been that way since before e-mtbs were even a thing.

For real?

I've got the latest issue in front of me.

there's a large thread detailing how they might have to shut up shop

Don't feed the troll .

The op is entitled to his opinion, but he makes some sweeping unfounded statements based on some ignorance.

The trail erosion is nonsense.
The lazy rider is nonsense, I'm just going out on the ebike now , but recovering from a recent operation.

Do I need permission and justification for riding? er no.

Just to add.

I use the term troll, because this has been discussed at length on here.

If you don't like ebikes, then fine.

Seems a bit daft to leave the forum and stop subscribing to a great mag based on a relatively small part of biking.

The ebike shares alot of similar cycle parts, gets you out in the open air enjoying yourself.

Too many similarities to not subscribe / enjoy etc.

can't please all of the people , all of the time I suppose.

Most of the erosion I've seen on trails is the brake bumps caused by people not having the skill to go round corners properly.

On a complete tangent to the OP, I always thought braking bumps were caused by the correct technique, i.e. doing your braking before the corner? That's were I remember braking bumps forming anyway (I don't ride trail centres often).

Mr Agreeable - Member
It's also worth pointing out (again) that e-bikes have been a mature technology for three or four years now. If anything, you could argue that they're deliberately underrepresented in the mountain bike media. It's a bit like if magazines refused to acknowledge the existence of full suspension, or disc brakes.

I disagree Mr Agreeable

The big brands and now the publications have been pushing particularly hard all year, plus you have new OEs launching new motors & powerpacks

Next year will be E-bike batshit crazy

I'm with the OP and feel his annoyance. I think his perception of added trail erosion is wrong

However, i also understand that STW is a business and has to support the manufacturers or they don't get the advertising revenue

E-Bikes are wrong on many levels - but i'll continue to buy the magazine and voice my opinions on here whilst proudly riding my 100% human powered bicycle

I'm just stunned we've found a topic that's never ever been discussed on the forum before. Amazing.

This is up there with 1x and road disc brake threads

If anything, you could argue that they're deliberately underrepresented in the mountain bike media.

We're very aware that e-bikes annoy some readers, which is why I'm careful when we feature them. As someone has said, they're part of the mountain bike scene and just as you'll see some on the trail, so you might see some in the magazine. As for the over-promotion of them, what advertisers want to place, that's up to them - and I'd argue that Singletrack is probably a very relevant place to do that, but that's not editorial content. The e-bike manufacturers are desperate to get the word out about their (very great) bikes that they're making, but they don't really have much of an outlet, due to the aforementioned throttling of e-bike content in our (and everyone else's) magazine. Yes, we could do a separate magazine for them, like we did when some people complained about off road, drop bar bikes appearing in their magazine, but that would require more resources that we don't really have.

e-bikes do annoy some readers, as do fat bikes, singlespeeds, carbon bikes, 'cross bikes, steel bikes, women's bikes, cargo bikes, enduro bikes, pedal bikes and downhill bikes. We're careful how much we feature anything that's not in the relatively narrow bell curve of the readers' idea of what a 'normal' bike is, but I don't think that we can ignore e-bikes any more than we can ignore steel hardtails.

There will occasionally be e-bikes in the magazine in the future, but probably a lot fewer than you'll see in real life, and every mention of them will have been agonised over more than is probably necessary.

The trail erosion one always confuses me in whatever argument it is used. So what if people try to go round puddles or use a trail more, they're not gonna wear the mountain away! 3 days of very heavy rain would do more damage than a summer's worth of mtbers. Just nonsense!

proudly riding my 100% human powered bicycle

[img] [/img]

jekkl - not so. I have watched over the 20 years I have been riding locally paths deteriorate / widen and erode due to MTB use. One that used to be a lovely ribbon of singletrack is now a 3 m wide mud puddle - and you can see from the wear its MTBs not walkers in the main. This was after that path got publicised.

Sure paths are made by erosion but its the widening and deepening of them by use when the conditions are poor and by people riding around the puddles.

I'm honoured munrobiker - truly i am.....:)

Good to get some input from Chips

Love the sentence "The e-bike manufacturers are desperate to get the word out about their [b][i](very great)[/i][/b] bikes that they're making"

Says it all!!

EROSION?

Have you ridden Lee/Cragg Quarry? in fact pretty much anywhere in Lancashire at the very least. The whole landscape is littered and soiled with our industrial past, a few skids on the ground don't make any difference in the grand scheme of things.

Re E-bikes, Im all for them and im a fit 100% human powered bicycle-er. Bike+modern technology=ebike whether you like it or not. There are still fully mechanical bikes available for luddites.

e-bikes do annoy some readers, as do fat bikes, singlespeeds, carbon bikes, 'cross bikes, steel bikes, women's bikes, cargo bikes, enduro bikes, pedal bikes and downhill bikes.

Pedal Bikes??? Grrrr! I hate them.

Balance bikes all the way for me. I like the solitude.

jekkyl - Member

The trail erosion one always confuses me in whatever argument it is used. So what if people try to go round puddles or use a trail more, they're not gonna wear the mountain away!

You don't need to erode a mountain away to spoil a trail.

The big brands and now the publications have been pushing particularly hard all year, plus you have new OEs launching new motors & powerpacks

Without counting every feature and working out what proportion of these feature e-bikes, I don't think either of us can comment. However I did think it was ironic that the OP said was going to unsubscribe from the magazine, given that it's practically an e-bike free zone.

[i]There's one (subtle) e-bike advert just inside the front cover (the bit that I usually flick straight past)... and literally no mention of e-bikes for the subsequent 113 pages. None at all.[/i]

Must admit, having flicked through the new issue, I had to wonder what the hell the OP was on about.
Don't agree with Chipps though - they're not part of the mountain bike scene, they're part of the eBike scene. All the other stuff he says annoy people are part of the mountain bike scene (well, apart from 'cross bikes, but that's been covered).
You may or may not agree with me, I don't give a toss. I'm not annoyed, I'm not trolling, I'm not arguing about it or trying to change your mind.

I don't think that we can ignore e-bikes any more than we can ignore steel hardtails.

3 days of very heavy rain would do more damage than a summer's worth of mtbers. Just nonsense!

Obviously depends on the location, the surface and the traffic.
During 10UtB 2015 I watched the blue descent at Fort William erode from a nice mellow blue to something quite definitely red graded - rutted with rocks jutting through all over - and this is trail centre hardpack.

Fortunately they seem really on their game repairing trails there and by Relentless at the end of the year they had fixed it up again.

Anyone denying an ebike causes more erosion than a regular MTB clearly hasn't thought too much about it - more weight and more power is always going to equal more erosion - whether its a significant amount more - well i doubt anyone has measured any data on that.
And if we are really concerned, then maybe we should ban chubby MTBers too?

Anyway, short version: Erosion argument is a storm in a teacup, but to try to pretend it doesn't exist is a bit daft.

they're not part of the mountain bike scene, they're part of the eBike scene.

Only if you exclude them.

All the experience I've had of riding them or being in their presence has been in the context of riders of ebikes and bikes being on the same rides and socialising together riding the same trails. Very much part of the exact same scene.

It's not like someone in the regular riding group buys an ebike and only rides with their ebike friends and doesn't go out riding with the other guys anymore. In the same way that someone buys a dropper post doesn't then go and join a group of riders with dropper posts at the expense of their old riding mates who don't have dropper posts.

In short... MXers don't ride with mountain bikers. But ebikers DO ride with non ebikers because they are both, fundamentally, still mountain bikers. Same trails, same times, same gear, same beer, same scene.

I hate e-ebikes for a very good reason. I'm 64 and one day I'll have give up riding my pimped up carbon Jekyll and then I'll buy an e-bike and that will be the day I think that finally I'm old.

I will get an e-bike because I'm sure they'll keep the fun coming for more years.

Anyone denying an ebike causes more erosion than a regular MTB clearly hasn't thought too much about it - more weight and more power is always going to equal more erosion

It's about 15-20lbs more weight - less difference than the variation in body weight you get in a typical riding group. The extra power of a 500W motor equates to less than 1 bhp. Plus said motor cuts out above 15 mph.

As causes of trail damage go, they are never going to figure in the top 10, or even the top 50, even if they become much more widespread.

Only if you exclude them.

Well we should, they aren't properly pedal powered and they wouldn't be allowed in a bike race of any kind I can think of.

yourguitarhero - Member
men 50+ have lots of cash to spend.

Don't know where I went wrong then..

) Electronic assistance means extra torque. Extra torque means extra erosion, and trail erosion is bad

Best be banning Jared Graves off the trails then eh......

His power meter. Yup, 1900+ W

[img] [/img]

mr agreeable - 250W max or its no longer and ebike its just an electric motorcycle

Best be banning Jared Graves off the trails then eh......

His power meter. Yup, 1900+ W

pfft, 9.5 KMH average, pfft

proudly riding my 100% human powered bicycle"

Swoon.

[img] [/img]

proudly riding my 100% human powered bicycle

Most of the people I've met from Bolton don't look 100% human.

thestabiliser - Member
E-bike coverage grumble
Niche, you're well into darkweb territory there

POSTED 8 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST

Rule 34.

Wonder if a ebike could actualy cause less trail damage because of the smooth deliver of that 250w of power, as opposed to my gibbon stomping efforts?

I'd like to make one point if I may:

We're in danger of this becoming tribal. An US and THEM thing. We're already arguing and (Generally not here) there's a lot of tossers getting too shouty. This needs to be avoided. It's just people on bikes and like it or not it's happening. I've changed my mind about e-bikes and made my peace with them. I'd urge others to do the same.

Love and peace etc 😉 🙂

Hippy

e-Hippy

Hipp-E

E bikes don't really worry me to be honest.

I would be gutted if the future held *only* E bike options but I think and hope that is unlikely.

Other than that I don't think it's a big problem.

Let people ride what they like (within reason!) as long as I am afforded the same choice to ride without a motor.

One day my choice may well change. Which is fine too.

PeterPoddys post for the win

Signed. E-Trout

I'm inclined to agree with the OP, a position reinforced by these threads as the e-bike advocates appear a right nasty lot.

E-by ek

I'm inclined to agree with the OP, a position reinforced by these threads as the e-bike advocates appear a right nasty lot.

TTFN princess.

IME both sides give as good as they get, the difference being the advocates, in general, have ridden the bikes they have adopted a stance on, rather than sticking their fingers in their ears and chanting 'motors plus bikes equals motorbikes, motors plus bikes equals motorbikes...' whilst steadfastly refusing to try them.

Point proven ta