"King Lance have never let so much as a fruit pastille pass their lips"

you're joking right? he had a 'non-negative' for EPO in '99. not testing +ve officially isn't the same as not ever doping.

at the top, more dope than don't, it's always been that way. read the Dr Ashenden interview on Cycling News.com for a starter, only one side of it i know, but it makes it easier to understand dopig from both rider and tester POV.

he had a 'non-negative' for EPO in '99. not testing +ve officially isn't the same as not ever doping.

While I suspect that's probably right, to take it as definitive is naive at the least – as has been mentioned above, it was very debateable about how fair or even accurate this was – there were people clearly out to get LA and that's how the results from the testing came out. It certainly wouldn't be unrealistic to say that there's at least a reasonable possibility that the results were made to match what they wanted.

The thing is, even if he is cheating, he still beat all the other people cheating, having come back from having cancer, which is very impressive whichever way you look at it. I'd really like to be a Lance fan, but unfortunately his attitude to drugs (even if he is clean) spoils it for me.

I think the Shreks just enjoy hurting an awful lot. I expect they're into severely heavy MS, especially Andy. Look at his face when he's climbing, he's in heaven

😆

aye, it's all down to the suit. doping is only prevalent in cycling…;)

To be fair to the swimmers, there's loads of evidence that wetsuits make you something like 5% faster in the water due to added buoyancy*, and those fancy now banned suits were getting a significant advantage using exactly the same well understood principles.

Joe

*Which is why triathletes will wear wetsuits even if they are not compulsory in a race, and open water swimmers will put them on if they're allowed

The thing is, even if he is cheating, he still beat all the other people cheating

the problem with that is that doping does not give the same performance benefit from one individual to the next, so if all dope then the winner is not necessarily the best athlete

With the amount of testing LA undergoes if he isn't clean then he's on something they haven't banned yet

clubber, you're right, but when you read about the detail of the testing in this instance and all others, you realise it's actually pretty much impossible odds to try to frame someone in the way they suggested it. samples were numbered not named, some were found +ve. later, seperately, someone in the french media matched numbers to samples reliably – and bingo, lance was unofficially +ve. the numbers and names showed there was EPO in hs urine – not proof to ban, but certainly the smoke that suggests a fire. the evidence makes me believe it's more likely correct than a 'stitch up', even if not legally provable that he doped.

It's easy to come up with counter claims like teh 'hounded by the media' stroy and armstrongs' guys are well experienced in this. for example, under oath in a trial over his bonus he had to reveal info that makes his whole 'lighter rider same power' story a load of BS. but people quote it as fact.. read the Ashenden interview, it explains more and ties up a few other aspects of doping in recent years. Nothing's proven but balance of probability say's armstrong isn't superhuman, just damn good. most of the guys he beat so convincingly were the best in the world and were also doped. and armstrong beat them on water alone? unlikely.

however, i'm a fan of Armstrong whether he dopes or not. i love his riding style and he makes a tour more interesting. but like many of my roadie heroes, i'm not naieve enough to claim they are 100% clean. i don't know, i'll take them for what they are.

you're joking right?

No, i was entirely serious. Right from where I called Lance 'King' through to where I suggested the Shreks were into MS.

This isn't just EPO, this is lovingly injected, carefully screened M&S EPO.
Contador's definitely doping. He's Spanish, has a silly grin, and does that stupid pistol thing. Pretty much incontrovertible evidence in my book.

Fair point IanMunro.

Over on veloriders they've come up with an almost pefect system for detecting dopers – take a rider's surname, work out the corresponding scrabble score (you don't know how to score by memory! that's ok, go here 🙂 ).

IIRC Anyone over 15 is questionable, anyone over 20 is cheating. Check out the recent dopers. Astarloza for example.

🙂

Anyone got a link to the Dr Ashenden article?

you're joking right?

No, i was entirely serious

ok then that's clear – sarcasm doesn't always translate well in posts! enough people do call him king, god, etc.. M+S bit lost me

Does anyone know if it's possible to absorb enough sythetic testosterone through the skin to in a solution to make you fail a drug test? I wondered of Landis was handed a bidon from a 'fan' that was spiked, he was poring so much water over his head the day when he cracked. It's a bit unlikely i know, but is it possible?

I doubt it's possible from skin alone unless it's a patch. His claim is that he won the stage by keeping cool by pouring lots of water over himself and that was handed to him by the team car so it's unlikely that he would have taken any from a specatator anyway.

Ashenden: http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=Ashenden+armstrong&meta=

ref Lance and EPO:

who watched the Wheel Heroes on ITV4 after one of the tour stages? Bunch of cancer survivors riding the etape? They were in the same hotel as a team that got raided (cofidis?). One of the cancer guys talking to camera says "EPO? I had that injected as part of my treatment".

Seems churlish given what Armstrong undoubtedly went thru with cancer, but is it possible his subsequent performance benefited from the treatment he received? Is it possible armstrong, his manager etc knew that this would be the case?

EPO benefits are temporary. Stop taking it and soon enough you lose the benefit. I don't think anyone's arguing that his cancer treatment actually helped him other than by losing muscle.

Michael Ashenden

sorry can't see it on Cyc News maybe my gaff, here's another link to interview. very interesting if not conclusive, but then nothing seems to be conclusive in this area.

Sadly, Doping is endemic in pro cycling – thats why most people who speak out against it are quickly ostracised. Wiggo is very outspoken about it, so I suppose its just a matter of time before he becomes the black sheep of the peloton.

I don't think anyone's arguing that his cancer treatment actually helped him other than by losing muscle.

clubber, that's one of the myths questioned by ashenden, it makes me wonder about wiggin's comments saying his form is down to lower weight / same power too. i'm not doubting wiggins as i know sod all about this aspect, but it does seem hard to imagine how an already fit rider like him or lance, at probably around 5-6% fat, can loose that much weight and stay as strong.
Ashenden suggests there's a lot of smoke and mirrors in this area that cover up / explain doped perforance, but then again i don't agree with his theory of being able to calculate ascent times based on weight gradient and VO2 – headwinds, tyre pressure, aerodynamics, it's all too variable unless dope adds a massive gain, in reality its probably a lot more subtle than that.

in reality its probably a lot more subtle than that

nothing subtle about Vino's time trial speed in the last tour he was kicked off!

EPO gives an average increase in performance of 25% (alledgedly).

Ashenden may question it but you only need to look at photos of LA before and after the big C to see that he clearly had lost a lot of upper body muscle.

he definately lost weight post cancer but his 'increasing power-to-weight ratio' is the myth questioned. i'd say armstrongs pre/post cancer racing weight difference looks similar to wiggins over the last year?

Remember that LA started as a triathlete, and it really is pretty hard to actually lose muscle if it is still getting some use (I almost completely stopped kayaking for 6 months or so, yet still retained most of the muscle mass I use for that).

nothing subtle about Vino's time trial speed in the last tour he was kicked off!

true, or his paris finish!! "wind it in vino, your're giving it away by dropping the whole field of sprinters by 100yds!"

but he was blood doping, not on EPO, whether it has a similar level of effect i'm not sure. similar effect on the blood, but i thnk blood doping gives a more dramatic shrt term increase in performance.

I'd like to believe that Armstrong didn't dope pre retirement, but I think that's always going to be an area of uncertainty, and like religion, it's going to be damn near impossible to change an individuals stance on this, unless Armstong holds up his hand and admits it one day.

Post the first retirement though, I can't see it.
Sure, testing has improved. But more importantly, LA has an ego the size of a small planet, and that combined with how much is riding on his return:
Firstly, his performance in a tour which he probably knew in his heart he wasn't going to win, but could still probably place top 5 in, and be happy with that result.
Secondly, his desire to own/run a top team – there would be no chance in todays climate of achieving that if he tested a positive.
Thirdly, Livestrong is probably bigger than he ever imagined, and I think the responsibility for that rests too heavily on his shoulders to run the risks of doping.