So I sold my lovely Orange P7 a few weeks ago to a guy in Cardiff. The bike was posted and payment was taken via PayPal. A whole 9 days after taking delivery of it, the buyer filed a claim via PayPal asking for a full refund as the downtube is dented. There was no dent when I posted it of course, but unfortunately I don’t have any photos of that side of the bike to prove it. The bike was very well packaged in a cardboard bike box: the whole frame was bubble wrapped and the now damaged side of the frame was protected by the tyre. I think it’s highly unlikely it was damaged during transit. My feeling is that the buyer took the bike out, crashed it and now wants his money back. If I took delivery of a bike, the first thing I’d do would be to inspect it and get in contact with the seller straight away if there was something wrong – clearly not the case here. I disputed the claim and PayPal is investigating now, but I’m not too optimistic as they typically take the buyer’s side.

Any advice?

Name and shame if they are a forum user…

Was the protective tyre still on the wheel? There’s always a chance that it moved and the rim has gone into the tube.

Simplest way out would probably be a full refund on return of the bike?

If you didn’t take any pictures of the bike before shipping, it is your word against the buyer re the damage
I would ask for return and refund him
I always take loads of pics off bikes if I am posting for this very reason

within 1 hour of taking delivery – refund .9 days – they can go swivel .

When you say bike box, do you mean the huge ones that Wiggle use or the smaller ones that you have to remove the front wheel, bars and post to fit a bike in?

I only ask as there’s a chance that the front wheel might have moved in transit and the axle could have dinged the downtube. Long shot I know but you could claim off the courier if it was damaged in transit.

The nine days thing sets alarms ringing though and has probably ruined your chances of claiming off the courier.

if its paypal, you better move swift to de link accounts then. They will take buyers side.

CheesybeanZ – Member
within 1 hour of taking delivery – refund .9 days – they can go swivel .

I agree but Paypal almost always side with the buyer so the OP has grounds to be concerned.

This is why you should ONLY accept payment via paypal gift.

I dont use paypal but why does it side with the buyer?

Who made paypal judge Jury and Excecutioner in these things where they offer a refund without seeing anything?

I dont use Paypal purely because of the horror stories like this.

Advice if you suspect he’s a cockbag and he wont communicate? (does he?) I wouldd find out where he lives and go and pick your bike up mate, it sounds like he has his cash and your bike , see if his car has a dent in it when you leave that wasn’t there before.

Who made paypal judge Jury and Excecutioner in these things where they offer a refund without seeing anything?

On eBay, Paypal offer a money back guarantee. Any issue the buyer has, paypal always side with them as they have to honour this guarantee. I think this is, pretty much, their policy with non-ebay transactions too…

I bought a Wanga once (distance, via pics and courier) and it turned up with a sizeable dent in the downtube (seller was sure this was the courier) yet I let them know the same day it arrived. Lost my return postage but got the orginal amount of the bike refunded without resorting to Paypal. I’d never expect a refund sfter nine days unless I was:

1. Called way at the time and didn’t havetime to unpack it for 8 days, with evidence. or

2. Er…

PayPal have always sided with the buyer, I guess they have a harder time selling to buyers – I guess that’s why the seller pays the fees etc.

In my experience for a seller to ‘win’ a dispute, the burden of proof firmly sits firmly with them – the problem here is how do you prove it? You can send them pics of an undented frame, the buyer a pic of a dented frame and PP are left trying to decide when it happened, I personally think 9 days is far too long to “not notice” it, but with Xmas and all that they’ve probably got plausible reason to leave it in a box for a week or more. A shit situation.

Oh and beware the “partial refund” scam – I’ve been had once with it and three other buyers tried it on – cause a huge fuss about being not as described, threats of destroying feedback on EBay or how PP will **** up your life for months on end, but wait – there’s a simple way to avoid all that pain, just give me 20-30% back and we’ll forget about it – yeah right, offer a full refund or nothing and watch them piss, moan but ultimate do nothing.

Surely the guy requested pics before buying? Do these not show that side of the frame?

Just received a Mustang V amp head and pedal without the pedal. The time between me signing for the package and sending it back – about three hours because the post office was shut over lunch. Dishonest buyers, dishonest sellers (not you OP), **** the Net. I’ll be 45e down in postage.

Thanks for all your thoughts. From the sound of things my hands are tied.

A number of lessons to take away here:

1.Take detailed pics of the frame from all angles (unfortunately I only took pictures from one side, duh).

2. Insure the package. I posted with Parcel2Go and opted out of paying £25, or so, for insurance as I figured that the bike was very well packaged and losing a massive bike box would be pretty darn difficult.

3. Don’t agree to taking payment via PayPal. My fault again: at first the buyer planned to collect in person, then I agreed to an hour-long drive to deliver the bike to one of his friends, but eventually I agreed to post.

The decision is still in PayPal’s hands, but I’m almost certain it’s going to go in the buyer’s favour unless PayPal accepts that 9 days is too long to make a claim over a very obvious issue. Also, I have signature proof that he signed for the bike himself.

…I just had a thought that my last grain of hope might be contacting Sunset Cycles of Cardiff, where he may have taken the bike.

They’re located only 0.2 miles away from the buyer’s address and are coincidentally an Orange dealer. As I noted to the buyer, the rear brake was in need of bleeding before the bike was ready for use, so there’s a chance he got it done there (from an earlier conversation, I know he was keen to get out on it ASAP). Also, he claimed that he got the dent checked out by a “third party” source, which may well be them. Interestingly, this source allegedly claimed that the dent is a clear indication of a crash, rather than damage during transit.

I might give them a call tomorrow, but I doubt that they’d want to get involved, especially that this may relate to a customer.

Has anyone used Sunset Cycles before btw?

Worse case scenario return bike for a refund. Has he sent pics?

The chances of Sunset Cycles siding with you, some random bloke on the phone, or an actual customer that visits their shop are pretty slim.
As others have suggested the easiest way to sort this is to offer a refund on return of the bike and make PayPal aware that you still dispute the damage was there prior to posting the bike. Also point out to PP that the buyer personally signed for the package and then took 9 days to raise a dispute.
I have learned from bitter experience that there are some real twunts out there in eBay land and you need to do every thing possible to cover yourself, eg loads of pictures and always insure the package fully.

If I’m selling anything remotely big or of value I now take pics of the item with a news paper with the day and date on in clear view,I do this before I wrap it up then post it straight away,that way if there is a dispute I have pics of the item in the said state on the day it was posted,not much use to you now OP but may help others,I hope you get it sorted,issues like this are not good,like DIGGER95 said get your bike back and name and shame even if he isn’t a user.

If the buyer signed for the package in good condition you’ve no chance of getting a refund for the courier costs.

If you had seen the state of my bike after it was sent back by crc after some warranty work you could believe anything can happen it transit.
They (crc) had packaged it better than when I actually bought it. Pipe insulation tie wrapped to all the frame tubes and forks then bubble wrapped on top. Some how and it involved a big claim, parcelforce pushed the rear mech through the back wheel. That badly it bent not only the hanger and mech but crushed the cassette and chain. I even got a new rear triangle out of the courier….

Interestingly, this source allegedly claimed that the dent is a clear indication of a crash

Who’s the 3rd party? A cycling offshoot of the AAIB?

He probably crashed it after rear brake failed on him.

I’m curious/dubious why there were no pictures taken of the alleged damaged side. Was it damaged and you hope to get away with it? If im selling anything I take pics of every side/angle possible so the buyer knows what they are getting.

If the buyer is that close to Sunset Cycles that would put them right in the middle of studentsville. They would have received the bike as the place was emptying with all the students going home so the bike could have been taken elsewhere in this time, ridden and now brought back when the dispute was raised. May not have gone to Sunset at all.

I would get them to send you a full set of photos of the whole of the bike including the dent so that you can assess whether it’s been used or not. If it’s been used then they have accepted the goods IMO.

I always pack the bike so certain things have to be removed in order to ride, for instance zip tying through the pedal insert on cranks and then the crank to the frame/ zip tying the headset etc… A dent would be bloody obvious and should have been mentioned straight away rather than spend the time building up and then complaining.

Sounds like a chancer to me, if you haven’t actually seen proof of the dent ask for it. Worst comes to worst offer a full refund less postage.

I’ve been stung on eBay by chancers as well, it’s why it is my last resort for selling. Try to offload to mates / local riders first, then stw then finally ebay.

That reminds me I have loads to shift….

Loads of pics and postal insurance.

Small claims court?

Its all very well folk saying get pics off buyer but if coolbeanz has made the schoolboy error of not taking pics of the claimed damaged side of the bike prior to sale, its superfluous anyway as i doubt paypal/courier are going to entertain any claim without evidence that the bike wasn’t damaged before posting. In fact it adds a certain suspicion that there are a lack of photos of the damaged side.

Sorry coolbeanz but i think you’ll have to chalk this one up to experience imo

Yes, you can’t prove it wasn’t damaged, so not much chance of you winning this one, sorry.

If I’d sent out an undamaged bike and some clown took it out and damaged it, there’s no way I’d want the bike back either.

As others have said though, the OP’s lack of photos of the affected area does him no favours at all.

Everyone takes a load of photos showing both sides of the bike don’t they? If I have something to sell, I take way too many photos and then try to pick out the best ones for my listing.

Yeah, you’re probably right. Lesson learned.

It just makes me so angry that I’ll have to accept a damaged bike back, one I really loved and looked after for many years.

The buyer finally sent through some photos of the damage, 11 days after making the claim (I responded asking to see some on the same day of the claim). I’ll try to upload them for you to assess.

[url=https://flic.kr/p/C52QDZ]IMG_1076[/url] by coolbeanz89, on Flickr

[url=https://flic.kr/p/CsYLAE]IMG_1075[/url] by coolbeanz89, on Flickr

That looks like a dent from a ball peen hammer. Jus’ sayin’…

How far from there would the axle have been when it was all boxed up?

Maybe ask to see photos of the rest of the bike and the ends of the axle and packaging to see if there is evidence of crash or transit damage elsewhere.

That’s nasty. A blind man on a galloping horse would have spotted that on opening the box. Why would you even bother building it up after seeing that?

Whilst that does look like it could have been a movement of a wheel axle or knock in transit, why would it take 9 days to find it.

It isn’t exactly hard to miss.

All seems odd and nobody knows what happened in reality so hard to see a satisfactory outcome.

Is he by any chance a student who realised he spent way to much money he couldn’t afford and figured a way to get that money back.

Admittedly, the axle was near, but I made sure it wouldn’t touch and I also bubble-wrapped the frame and inserted some cardboard between the frame and the axle as a precaution. I guess there is a small possibility that it moved, though to create a dent of this size would require an awful lot of force and would have also likely damaged the axle/wheel (which is clearly in one piece in the picture).

In any case, it’s clearly a very pronounced dent and it just doesn’t add up that the buyer didn’t complain straight away after receiving the bike. I would not have even hesitated in refunding his money if he contacted me within a day of receiving it like this.

Additionally, the buyer initially stated: “I can send you a picture but it will be hard to see the dent because of the matt black colour of the frame”. In my opinion, the worst camera on the market would capture a dent of this size, which makes me wonder whether it was helped out a bit, especially that the pictures came through 11 days after the claim.

Almost certainly not a student. We spoke on the phone before the sale and he sounded like he’s in his 40s. The number 70 in his email address would support this.