The BMWs aren't that fast once you've added in the extra time it takes at junctions because no-one will let you pull out.

One of the first really widespread diesel engines was the VAG PD engine in 1.9 form. This did have a much narrower powerband than more modern efforts. My Ibiza had this, and you had to change up at about 3.5krpm to proceed most rapidly. NOT at the red line.

That's what I've got; 1.9TDi Ibiza with the 130bhp version. It will pull up to about 4k (although is probably past it's most grunt at about 3.5k revs) and above that it noticeably tails off. I think it redlines at 5k revs.
I very rarely rev it above 2.5krevs on a normal drive.

One of the blokes at work has got an 02 reg A3 with the same engine as my Ibiza. I've been in it a few times and he drives with that real 'whiplash' shove in the back style. I can easily imitate it, but never drive like that as it is just a bit stupid.

I don't think that 6-speed gearboxes are to compensate for the narrow powerbands. My Ibiza is 6-speed whereas the lesser powered 100bhp version only gets 5 gears. Mine however, has a 6th gear that makes best use of the torque and allows 70mph driving at 1800rpm. And there's still enough shove that you don't need to change down to accelerate (unless you want to hoof it, I suppose).

The BMWs aren't that fast once you've added in the extra time it takes at junctions because no-one will let you pull out.

Luckily Cornwall has very few junctions 😉

Even at the bottom end of the scale, diesels are often nippier due to easy torque and lazy power.

I would say especially at the bottom end of the scale. After all, a 1.4l NA petrol is going to do nothing apart from move you around, where as the 1.9TDi was actually pretty good fun.

Once you get more expensive, and you start comparing turbo petrol or V6s or V8s to diesel, it gets more complicated. I'm sure a massive V8 NA petrol would be great to drive, but that's a bit of a specialist motor, and entirely impractical as a general car for most people if it's gonna do 20mpg.

Mol – I have the "pleasure" (!) of owning a very small revvy petrol engined car (the 1.3 16v Jimny with 85bhp) and a pretty large engined bi turbo diesel – quite bizarrely, when I'm in the right mood I actually enjoy thrashing the Jimny to within an inch of it's life. If you get it exactly right, it's moves around okay and is almost occasionally "nippy." Something quite satisfying about rinsing every last hp out of it compared to the BM's effortless wad of power and torque.

Used it earlier to get to an appointment – it was hammering it down and flooding so it was a better bet (the Jimny) – rather fun tbh and amazing how many people you can pass when you are "on it."

But you could say comparing a 1.9DTI to a 1.4 petrol also a little unfair 😉

when I'm in the right mood I actually enjoy thrashing the Jimny to within an inch of it's life.

I know what you mean, but I am talking about everyday normal driving not novelty factor fun. Like a 4 hour drive to North Wales, or taking your family to the next town for a meal etc etc.

But you could say comparing a 1.9DTI to a 1.4 petrol also a little unfair

The reason I keep mentioning that comparison is that the two cars were the same price, same age, same size, same power and speed. It was very revealing the differences in the drive. When I drove the Fiesta it had my parents in it, so I clearly wasn't out to thrash it. I'm sure if I was I could have got to my destination in a similar time in either car.

Mol – I have the "pleasure" (!) of owning a very small revvy petrol engined car (the 1.3 16v Jimny with 85bhp)

You own a Jimny.
You've just admitted to owning it on a public forum.
Anything you have said, say, or will ever say about cars is now dismissed/rendered meaningless.

Well actually it's owned by Mrs Matt. And here you go uninformed man of stupidity…

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/grouptests/213471/suzuki_jimny_vs_daihatsu_terios.html

Part of this mega test:

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/grouptests/213438/offroad_shootout.html

Jimny comes 2nd overall.

Now who knows nothing about cars? 😉

Suzuki Jimny
1. Wading 8/10
2. Mud 9/10
3. Grass 8/10
4. Ruts 7/10
5. Rocks 6/10
6. Climbing 9/10
7. Descending 8/10
8. Manoeuvrability 10/10
9. Durability 7/10
10. Fun 9/10
Total 81/100

Grip. Sorted! Off road! Mince!

What a crock.
Better than a Terios? Oh, the honour!
In a group test against a Hummer, a Wrangler? Brokeback Motoring.

Jimnys are great, I dont agree with a lot of Matts regurgitated Evo, Autocar tests but he is on the money with a Jimny. Amazing little beasts that will get you anywhere.

It beat all but the Discovery overall.

Not very good on cars are you Jimbo?

I had a job driving a lot of off roaders (Geotec Engineer) for a couple of years and done a lot of greenlaning. The Jimny is embarrassed by nothing short of a modded Defender off road.

It's shit on road of course but that's what the BM is for.

Back to the drawing board image issue boy.

Pigface – an agreement?!! Off to pop open some champers. Bolly okay for you?

Once you get more expensive, and you start comparing turbo petrol or V6s or V8s to diesel, it gets more complicated. I'm sure a massive V8 NA petrol would be great to drive, but that's a bit of a specialist motor, and entirely impractical as a general car for most people if it's gonna do 20mpg.

I've a little V8 (a 3.5), and yes, they are great to drive – and as you say the only real downsize is their lack of 'economy'. But then, if you buy old you've little depreciation to suffer – consequently the only real cost is when you drive them.

These tables are quite interesting:

http://www.theaa.com/allaboutcars/advice/advice_rcosts_petrol_table.jsp

http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/running_costs/diesel2010.pdf

So, drive my old V8 or buy a sub-£12k car for the same overall costs… hmm, doesn't take much thinking about.

I tested a 750i (last of the last shape V8) and that was a sweet engine.

I may be teaching grandmothers to suck eggs but power = torque x revs. Simple as that! So the power curve is merely the torque curve tilted on an angle.

If Mat is capable of liking a Jimny, then he's capable of liking a Prius too I reckon.

So, drive my old V8 or buy a sub-£12k car for the same overall costs… hmm, doesn't take much thinking about.

So you're saying I should go with a crappy old V8 instead of a nice new small car? Umm.. not quite sure I follow!

I'm warming to the Prius Mol… 😉

I was thinking about this the other day. I mean it's far from perfect of course, but it has nice traits and I think character. Like your Jimny. If you focus on the nice bits then you can like it.

A new one was next on the shopping list for a year or two's time (although Mrs Grips doesn't like the interior much), but that may well have been gazumped by a new caravan 😀

Had a twin turbo Saab for a while. No lag worth mentioning at all – the small turbo spools up so fast you don't notice it, and then it transitions to the bigger one as the revs rise. Still miss that car…

So you're saying I should go with a crappy old V8 instead of a nice new small car? Umm.. not quite sure I follow!

Factor in depreciation, cost of capital and all that jazz and a small new car can work out quite pricey.

Anything with a V8 is going to be from a good way up the motoring food chain. XJ8, 540i etc. You get all the toys, safety features etc. plus comfy seats, RWD, good stereos and the ability to drive at high speed without going deaf. Nothing crappy about the experience, unless you are one of those odd bods who must have a new car on the drive.

I don't count total depreciation of cars when I look at running costs. I buy a car, it has a purchase price, then it's mine and I have an asset. When I come to sell, then it's worth whatever it's worth. I buy the car I want for its merits, one of which may be daily running costs.

I'd much rather drive a 2 year old car than 10 year old one.

You get all the toys, safety features etc. plus comfy seats, RWD, good stereos and the ability to drive at high speed without going deaf.

A 2 year old TDi gives me all those things apart from RWD and does 50mpg. No brainer!

I don't count total depreciation of cars when I look at running costs.

Then you aren't looking at total running costs 😆

You really should speak to your accountant 😉

Then you aren't looking at total running costs

To me, running costs and depreciation are different things. They come out of different pockets.

In any case I'm more concerned about emissions than cost of fuel.

In any case I'm more concerned about emissions than cost of fuel.

Really?
And you drive a diesel??

CO2 emissions, mate.

In any case I usually drive a hybrid. Low CO2 and low everything else too.

Mol – diesels chuck out other nasties that petrols don't. We have both so can't really "diss" either!

I saw the Prius as an image laden car for the misled eco warrior – now I realise it's actually the only medium sized car with emissions that are stupidly low and plenty of space. The Honda Insight which sort if competed seems to have died a death – is it still around?!

Tron – you need to drive a fast diesel (6 pot or 8 pot) at high speed – mine's so quiet at silly speeds that it's quite odd. What noise it makes is quite pleasant (almost V8ish but quieter) but it's way less noisy than any comparable petrol. And of course there's RWD, a good stereo and even without PITA i-drive (which I hate), plenty of "toys."

I appreciate old luxobarges with V8s but I wouldn't want to run one.

CO2 emissions, mate.

In any case I usually drive a hybrid. Low CO2 and low everything else too.

In which case you should be able to direct me to some convincing research in favour of diesel…

I've found none

Tron – you need to drive a fast diesel (6 pot or 8 pot) at high speed

That's not really my point. In my view, diesels are best suited to big cars going motorway miles – the extra weight has less effect, and there's more room for sound deadening. And the increased range is a massive advantage. When I borrowed an XJ8 for a while, I felt like I was putting fuel in every 15 minutes…

My point was more that any oldish big capacity petrol car is going to be faster, quieter than a newish car with the same running costs. But of course, it does all depend on miles and type of driving – do loads of city miles and a new small car will come out top, do an average 10k a year and you're probably even, do a lot of high speed motorway miles and you'll go deaf and have backache in the small car 😀

Let's face it – we are all a bit selfish really. Diesels have low VED and go further on a tank of fuel. They used to be shockingly cack in road cars but now compete and often beat petrol equivalents.

If you can't see the upsides and downsides of good petrols and good diesels then you shouldn't really comment on cars at all.

Tron – drive more than 50 miles in our Suzuki and you're deaf and crippled! But that's not what it's for.

As for weight – 335d unit weighs less than 30kg more than the 335i unit. It's a similar story with the diesel/petrol units in the Jag XF. So less than half a tank of fuel more in weight.

Most properly powerful diesels are in massive wallowy barges or SUVs – I think where the BM scores is that it's very pokey (in a V8 style) but also handles and is fun to drive. No one else has quite got this balance yet – 3.0TDI Audis, 350CDI Mercs and the Jag XF 3.0 diesel (which is mostly brilliant) are basically motorway cruisers that aren't a lot of fun on a twisty road.

Again though – a good petrol is a joy, so is a good modern diesel.

Mol – diesels chuck out other nasties that petrols don't. We have both so can't really "diss" either!

I know, that's what I am talking about.

In which case you should be able to direct me to some convincing research in favour of diesel…

My point is that diesel cars in general emit significantly less CO2 than their petrol equivalents, which is better on a global scale. However they emit a lot more smog-causing chemicals. If I lived in California or Athens I'd not drive one, but I don't. I think smog is more of a local issue than a global one.

Plus apparently diesel can cost a lot more energy to manufacture.

I see petrol hybrids as by far the cleanest cars to drive, however you can't tow in one, hence me buying a diesel for a second car. I do wish I'd bought a different diesel though as mine's not even that good compared to other diesels.

Mat – the old Honda Insight was the weird 2 seater thing, they stopped making it years ago, but there's a new one that is totally different. It's fairly small, being only a bit bigger than Fiesta etc I reckon, and it looks even weirder than a Prius, but it's strangely likeable. My in-laws have one, and it's really fun to drive. Spartan and fairly slow but a good fun drive. It's not as economical as a Prius and slower, but cheaper.

do a lot of high speed motorway miles and you'll go deaf and have backache in the small car

That's way not true any more. I put 40k miles on my Ibiza and it was lovely.

My point is that diesel cars in general emit significantly less CO2 than their petrol equivalents, which is better on a global scale.

Why is that?
Frustratingly, vehicle emissions are measured at the "tailpipe" as it were – ok for comparing one model to another, which is what consumers need, but not very helpful when comparing one fuel type / engine technology to another.

Plus apparently diesel can cost a lot more energy to manufacture.

And that energy = CO2 emissions at the refinery.
I'd like to know the comparative CO2 emissions of the litre of petrol / diesel that we buy at the pump – that should be included as an adjustment factor to the "tailpipe" emissions.

I don't know the answer, or even if there is one, one way or the other. It's a question that I have been asking for 10+ years – during which time engine technology and efficiencies have improved, but refinery capital investment and upgrades operate over a far longer timescale…

ETA – in my experience the oil companies are very conservative in their approach to publishing information – trying to work out the CO2 emissions of a litre of petrol or diesel could be quite a headache and would be expected to vary from planmt to plant depending on age, configuration, location etc…

Oh yes – did non stop (apart from fuel stops) Alps to Calais in a Saxo VTR and arrived fine 😉

The 335d in the States has to have Urea added to the fuel for some emissions reasons. YUCK!

To me, running costs and depreciation are different things. They come out of different pockets.

but the same trousers…

I'd like to know the comparative CO2 emissions of the litre of petrol / diesel that we buy at the pump – that should be included as an adjustment factor to the "tailpipe" emissions.

Me too. This was raised on here a while ago – I think TINAS brought it up. I think it depends, since plenty of diesel just comes out of the ground of course, but that's not enough so the extra is made up from cracking heavier oils hence the extra energy.

Oh yes – did non stop (apart from fuel stops) Alps to Calais in a Saxo VTR and arrived fine

Ugh.. I meant most small cars are decent EXCEPT FOR A CITROEN SAXO! One of the most God awful cars I ever drove. I only did a few miles in it and I was very uncomfortable! Pedals far too close together and about 6" left of where they should've been.

but the same trousers…

Yes. I buy the car I want, then I pay for it, put fuel in it then I fix it. It's my car. I'm not investing money in it (since that would be a terrible rate of return!) but I am going to sell it at some point way in the future. At which point any money I get from it is just a deposit on the next one.

I'm so glad Matt has returned from his tan top up, the thread has gone from informative to the usual willy waving & bollocks 🙁

AFAIC Diesel is only good for load lugging, they are dull to drive (I think I have driven more exotica than Matt) & although the BMW 335 is one of the best TD units if you want speed, its still not a diesel engine I would choose (its a BMW for a start).
I can however empathise with his Jimmy ownership, although I'm happy to contradicted myself & say its a shocking 'car' (try driving one on a motorway), small engine cars, diesels or petrol, that you need to 'rag' to go anywhere definitely have there own grin factor.

Happy trails folks.

I'm so glad Matt has returned from his tan top up, the thread has gone from informative to the usual willy waving & bollocks

He tops up the sun – not the other way around.

^^^^ 😀

Wahoo! Turbo lag or not, I got >64mpg on the way home for some reason & 62 on the way in this morning!!
I wonder if someone has pumped my tyres up to 50psi without my knowledge!?

Sorry 2Unfit – most are happy to discuss points, a select few internerd stalker geeks take offence even if I say hello. You are one of them.

Driven more exotica? So what if you have? It's as relevant to this thread as Cheddar cheese. I've been talking about ALL diesels from tiny engined to powerful. You see that's what this thread is about, not some bitter sniping.

And your last para makes no sense at all.

Happy stalking though. Seems to be a popular game amoung the "life's so unfair" brigade.

Seems to be a popular game amoung the "life's so unfair" brigade.

Good point Mat. You could end all this aggro now by selling up, and sharing your hard earned with the rest of STW 😆

Of course, you'd have to suppress the natural urge to get to work and make it all again, if you want to remain stalker free.

AFAIC Diesel is only good for load lugging, they are dull to drive

Dull is subjective I'm afraid.

I think they make ace cruisers, due to low down torque.

I wouldn't take one on a track day.