How is democracy supposed to work when half the electorate is below average intelligence ?

Hmmmm, more than a little bit surprised bearing in mind I’m not in the slightest bit socialist! I’ve definitely become a lot more liberal and tolerant over the last few years, but I’d consider myself right of centre for certain…

when half the electorate is below average intelligence ?

LOL!

So, back on topic, Democracy is a failure due to the debt it creates bribing people?

Didn’t the Romans have exactly this problem under their assorted emperors, who hand out free grain and circuses in order to keep the plebs happy.

So it’s not a problem unique to democracy. And at least with the latter we don’t need a civil war or a murderous praetorian guard to change things.

Anyway, what’s wrong with debt exactly?

So you were brainwashed by C4 last night then?

No, this is a view countries like China hold about western democracies. The programme on Channel 4 was very interesting and from what I could see, was critical of government of any political persuasion. These economists were saying that big government was too expensive and that the entire democratic system is a fraud because it supports bribery and employs too much of the working population. It certainly showed how commercially/financially incompetent politicians are. It also showed that, despite the cuts being made at present, the public debt will still grow.

hmm.

Hmmm epic pic post fail. Although it was quite accurate 😀 with my middle left slightly authoritarian views.

mboy – Member

Hmmmm, more than a little bit surprised bearing in mind I’m not in the slightest bit socialist! I’ve definitely become a lot more liberal and tolerant over the last few years, but I’d consider myself right of centre for certain…

You have hinted at one of my problems with part based politics. People regard them-self as fitting into party x or place them self as being right wing or left wing and that’s it. I realise the questions in the survey are not perfect but it goes to show how your views may be quite different from who you vote for. People also align them-self with one party and that’s it, even if you swapped policies around they would still align them-self with with the same party. Humans are by nature tribal and we like labels. So if we align our self with a party it’s quite wrench to change.

If we align our self as right of centre but then a part is described in the media as left of centre, even if we agree with more policies with said party, we are unlikely to vote for them because of where we regard ourself. I’m not say people do not change their allegiance but they do not do so as much or as freely as they think. Objectivity is hard, and we all have prejudice about moving votes / allegiance e.t.c.

The debt problem was caused by incorrect pricing.

You can make money in several ways. You can add value to something. Buy some wool, spin, and knit a jumper. You can make goods available to someone. Buy bananas ship bananas sell bananas. Sell knowledge and labour. Build bridges e.t.c

The best way to make is to find an incorrectly priced market, i.e. something where something is incorrectly priced due to you being-able to skip a cost.

Start a waste dispose company. Collect waste from people but them dump it all on some waste ground. You are a voiding the cost of properly disposing of the waste. The cost is born by the local community not just monitory terms but also in a drop in quality of live due living next to a load of rotting shit. Without regulation / fines e.t.c The company are missing lots of the costs. This an hole other world of of discussion on the incorrect pricing.

This business model is the one Oil companies are typically using. The cost of the damage caused by pollution is born by all. Of course maybe the consumer of the goods should pay for the damage is much of it’s damage is not done until it is burned. Oil is a bit of a special case as the rest of the economy now depends so much on incorrectly priced oil correct pricing has to be moved towards very slowly.

Another way of making loads of money with incorrectly priced goods in through deception.

Start buy written off cars. Weld them together. Sell on. The customer buys the car on faith that it is a good safe car but the car carries a hidden risk that is not fully factored into the price. The extra risk of serious injury in the event of a crash. This is the business model employed by some parts of the banks with the debt, the risk of default in the event of a crash was hidden. Deception.

Is it possible to have investment without debt ?

If one person has got money, which they don’t need in the immediate future, and want to invest it, whether that’s on the stock market, a savings account or premium bonds, would they be able to do so if it wasn’t for other people having mortgages or buying stuff that they can’t really afford on credit ?

You need to have debt to have economic growth as I understand it otherwise you have a finite amount of money and it is only moved around.

A good documentary about money is

The Ascent of Money Niall Ferguson http://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-ascent-of-money

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_creation

Also http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Modern_Money_Mechanics All though I think this is meant tobe out of date but some of the principles still hold. I’m not sure how independent it is as publication.

I have not read all of the above link but but only bits as I’ve fancied so I’m no expert they are probably many other good reference’s out there too

My point about incorrectly priced markets was going to be that the governments are the only ones who can correct the prices by way of taxes and fines. Unfortunately in the case oil companies the rest the economy relies too much on the incorrect pricing big complicated issue. In the case of banks the too big to fail situation comes to play, again too pivotal in the economy.

Seems about right.