The fact that some asshat fleet manager has stuck them on Corsa vans is a blind alley we probably didn't need to go down.
Agreed - but it wasn't an isolated incident though.
The Corsa vans look like two different fleets and there are another [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/cyclists-stay-awesome-carvanlorry-stickers/page/3#post-6120341 ]four minivans on page 3[/url] that all look like different fleets too - plus reports from cyclists seeing the stickers on other vans, taxis and even private cars.
That's not good and it is easy to imagine that not all of those stickers were placed on those vehicles with our best interests at heart 🙁
blind alley
I preferred the previous spelling!
Still not understanding how these stay back stickers make some of you feel that they give tbe drivers the right to tell cyclists what to do. Seems to be some weird hybrid of paranoia, hysteria and insecurity based on a theoretical reaction from a small minority of drivers.
Well LCC, Road Haulage Association, Freight Drivers Association all agree as well...
Road safety organisations have for several months been pressuring TfL to act on the stickers, described as "offensive" by London Cycling Campaign (LCC). Evidence has mounted that drivers of stickered vehicles have acted as though the stickers gave them the right to harass and endanger cyclists.Even the Freight Transport Association and The Road Haulage Association have expressed frustration at the confusion caused by mixed messages and hostile reactions resulting from the stickers, according to LCC.
[url= http://road.cc/content/news/121876-transport-london-agrees-scrap-stay-back-stickers ]Original story from Roadcc[/url]
[quote=MoreCashThanDash ]I'm not 100% behind stoffel approach in this argument, but we have these stickers and as far as I am concerned they can stay in place until the better ones are made available.
So you know better than the experts?
[quote=MoreCashThanDash ]reaction from a small minority of drivers
How many drivers need to use the stickers as an excuse to drive badly for it to be a problem?
as far as I am concerned they can stay in place until the better ones are made available.
I think they should be removed from vans and cars as soon as possible.
But I'm happy for them to stay on HGVs until suitable replacements are ready, which I believe is the plan.
Though [url= http://lcc.org.uk/articles/transport-for-london-says-cyclists-stay-back-stickers-to-go ]LCC point out[/url] that the old style warning stickers are still readily available too:
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Do those pre-date the "stay back" ones graham? 😕
I thought they were an improvement.
Yep, according to LCC that one is "the previous warning agreed between TfL and LCC". 🙁
Or they could use this old classic, which is still better than Stay Back:
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aracer - Member
Don't forget compulsory helmet and hi-viz, and making cyclists pay road tax. Presumably if you tot up enough points you also get banned from cycling. Such measures would doubtless help a lot.
I think you're missing the point just a bit here, as neilwheel said it's about responsibility. Part of responsibility is repercussions for actions or in-actions which is where cyclists differ, injury or death seem to be the only consequence for bad cycling.......not very off putting to people who can't even see an indicating bus etc ! I do like the sound of the points, that lad who I used to see every day riding with no lights, on pavements, no handed and headphones on (all at the same time) being a great example for why !
I hate the stickers, just prove that people think cyclists are incompetent to ride on the roads, hence why I back the education and enforcement route.
Fine, if the experts aren't happy with it, I hadn't read that link properly before referring to "evidence".
I've clearly done so much riding on roads, in traffic, that I'm desensitised and/or unaware of all these drivers who are out to get me and/or us. 😐
[quote=ryan91 ]I think you're missing the point just a bit here
Well not really - I think it's actually you missing the point. Your previous post gave a list of some of the things car drivers complain about cyclists not having - things which would be impractical to implement, wouldn't provide any real benefit and would be detrimental to society as a whole by putting people off cycling. I assumed you were joking and simply completed the list. If you were being serious, do you need an explanation of why compulsory licensing and insurance for cyclists would be a bad thing?
Part of responsibility is repercussions for actions or in-actions which is where cyclists differ, injury or death seem to be the only consequence for bad cycling.......not very off putting to people who can't even see an indicating bus etc !
So you're seriously suggesting that points on a licence would be more of a deterrent than injury or death? 😯
"Stay Back" is meaningless. Especially as it is appearing on other vehicles which don't have big blindspots:
"Stay Back" isn't the best wording, which is the point of the OP. It's being redesigned, but in the meantime it's the best we've got
For cyclists from other countries, of which there are many in most cities (students, etc), "Stay Back" is quickly understandable without a phrase book (blind spots and undertakers will probably be in the phrase book section on health)
"If you can't see my mirrors..." doesn't work for the type of accidents that we're discussing. I need to be able to see you
Too wordy and too complex is easily misread, misunderstood or plain misleading
I agree that it shouldn't be on small vans and cars, it devalues the message that 20% of cycling fatalities in London involve LGVs, so be careful around large vehicles, but I don't see it as reducing a driver's responsibilities (or shifting blame to cyclists). If I made a sticker saying, "Stay Back, I'm not insured" I wouldn't expect the Courts to back me and make your insurance company pay when I drove into you
To summarise IMHO, "Stay Back" is the best we've got just now
A form of words/symbols that's agreed by most, understood by most and used appropriately is going to be some way in the distant future while cyclists are dying in the present
[quote=timba ]"Stay Back" isn't the best wording, which is the point of the OP. It's being redesigned, but in the meantime it's the best we've got
Well apart from the previous designs that is. Alternatively the best might be nothing at all.
For cyclists from other countries, of which there are many in most cities (students, etc), "Stay Back" is quickly understandable without a phrase book (blind spots and undertakers will probably be in the phrase book section on health)
Unfortunately it doesn't actually tell them anything useful.
I don't see it as reducing a driver's responsibilities (or shifting blame to cyclists). If I made a sticker saying, "Stay Back, I'm not insured" I wouldn't expect the Courts to back me and make your insurance company pay when I drove into you
Well clearly you're not the sort of driver for whom it is a problem - unfortunately not all drivers are like you.
Here's what we got in Scotland, funded with Government money and promoted by Cycling Scotland:
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Cyclists know your place...
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[i]Hey cyclist, don't be a DowDow!! and pass on the inside. Crow knows best! A scaffolders graffiti...[/i]
Apologies for not reading the whole thread.
I was really surprised when I first saw one of those 'cyclist stay away' stickers on the back of a local firms white vans the other week.
It got me quite wound up and am now deciding whether to get in touch with the company and tell them what a bad message it gives out to other drivers.
Just fuel for the cycle haters imo.
I can't help but wonder about the motivation behind van drivers etc, putting these stickers on their vehicles.
Do they really [i]care[/i] about cyclists enough to have it as a safety warning?
Or do they just have it as an "us & them" badge.
I wonder how many of them [b]always[/b] overtake cyclists in a correct and safe manner.
Maybe they're not the tossers I instantly think they are when I see the yellow sticker.
Maybe it's time for a sticker to go on the back of all cyclists - Drivers stay away.
We have one on our car 'give cyclists more room'. Which is not in your face or threatening, can't remember but there may even be a 'please' at the beginning.
will more stickers and signs make any difference?
don't see many cyclists in London pay attention to signs on the road (or the traffic lights / pedestrians crossings for that matter..)
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or "no cycling" signs next to schools
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or on the rear of large moving vehicles
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mind you the motorists seem to have just as much trouble understanding road signs and markings
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nice place to park for a couple of hours
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Piss poor choice your top photograph. That's the sign that caused cyclists to go round the one-way system at Holborn where a cyclist was killed (and no doubt numerous others injured) cyclists who knew what the sign meant ignored it and those that didn't also ignored it in the interests of safety.
Its now a bus and cycle only lane as a result of pressure from cyclists and road safety groups, shame it took a death to make people see sense.
Its not a "piss poor choice" because it demonstrates that people don't pay attention to signs, whatever the circumstances of that particular layout could be - I am well aware of the fatal accident and other serious RTC that occured at Holborn because I spent 14 months working in that area
There were also a number of RTC along that "no cycling" road (which as you pointed out has now changed to a cycle and bus lane) from cyclists coming into conflict with buses and oncoming traffic in the other direction