Sue_W – I take it that was the HEPA Europe conference – I was there too! I don’t remember a talk by a Sue – which one did you do?

bigjim – I never really thought about all the bike parking at Oxford station except negatively: just try finding a space to lock up a tandem there!

And we may yet end up with Dutch quality and levels of infrastructure. Despite comments to the contrary there’s decent evidence for the price elasticity of demand for petrol – as prices rise consumption falls. Couple that with increasing oil price volatility, the imperative to factor in carbon pricing, and the wider social and economic benefits of shifting from our current unsustainable spatial and urban planning approaches to genuinely sustainable ones (viz the Netherlands) and there is at least some chance of us shifting to a different paradigm. It’ll take a while to rejig all the infrastructure, but I reckon my kids are at least as likely to live in a cycling future as a Jetsons-style flying car scenario.

lomax – it was indeed the HEPA conference! Didn’t notice anyone going by the name of “lomax” there though 🙂 Thought the posting above about Darlington was interesting given the poster presentation from Cycling England, which indicated an increase in cycling participation.

I had a poster presentation there on the research I’m doing on the segmentation of outdorr recreation participants based on differences in physical activity levels. If you have it to hand, it’s in the book of abstracts: “Beyond the Binary”. (I’m now curious as to who you are, it’s such a small world when two people from a HEPA conference bob up on STW!)

I had a Dutch Girlfriend for a couple of years and the thing i will never forget is cycling in the countryside and the litter free roadsides, lovely houses, perfect roads, drains that work when it rains, brilliant signage and it felt great how cars sit at a distance behind until its safe for them to overtake!, 🙂
I did see graffiti in towns but i kinda like it if its good, which most is, but i love it and when visiting here my Ex (sob) used to comment that there are more buses than bicycles in Edinburgh!

A film of scenery while cycling from Swolle down the Dyke road in the Veluwe region to Daventer, stunning scenery…
Pancake cafe at Swolle is a must to visit!

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU3uwQNvs0g[/video]

And there were a few bikes parked up in towns 🙂

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W00e11BayBk[/video]

Im heading back next summer to ride the whole road from Swolle to Arnhem and to find and visit my Mums fathers grave who died there in Operation Market Garden (Gordon Highlanders) in 1944,
Meeting elderly folk when over there the Scots are loved for what they did in those dark times…

Hi Sue – found you in the abstracts book – I’ve emailed you 🙂

But part of the problem is also this:
http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/transport/cyclists_are_urged_to_take_a_brake_after_third_accident_within_month_1_1910880
Also Edinburgh but in this case a whinge about cyclists Travelling too quickly & upsetting the peds. What makes this different is that this is a road ( quiet for cars dead end but still a road) which the bloke is complaining about. People in this country just think bikes are Wrong no matter what the context. It will take an awful lot to change that mindset.

One man broke an arm and his collarbone, and is to be off work for a year

Hmmmmm not convinced by that! The evening news/scotsman do publish a lot of anti-cycling stories, bikes on pavements are a big favourite of theirs, though I’ve very rarely seen bikes on pavements here compared to some other cities like London.

nah. Brits are ****. We’ll never achieve that level of sensible activity. Too many people are tied to the car. It’s whay we’re very goosd at motorsports but very bad at being nice people.

I used to work for a large city council and was involved in the planning and implimentation of cycle routes, though now live in France. The UK already has an incredible cycle network, connecting almost every home to shops and leisure facilities. There just happens to be cars on it. The UK could have similar cycle culture to the Netherlands and Denmark, all it needs is the same gradual shift in perceptions to occur. Much of the current thinking and research into cycle routes (the stuff where facts are looked at, not opinion, so if you disagree, it can’t be a personal opinion, I want figures..) is that segregrated routes can result in increased injuries once peds, cyclist & motorised vehicles mix again, and that you simply can’t afford to create a complete segregrated network for all 3 modes, so instead bringing down traffic speeds to allow all modes to freely and safely mix is probably the best solution. This works best where there is the fabled critical mass of cyclists in addition to pedestrians and motor vehicles. Where one group vastly outnumbers another, then there are more problems.
Also, for all the complaints about cycle routes in UK cities, there is usually a very good plan, which then has to go to consultation, then lots of locals object to the idea of loosing a parking space right outside their front door (there is a perception that “Road Tax” gives people the right to own a car, not the opportunity), then the HGV lobby, who must be consulted, will object to the traffic calming measures and before you know it, all you can do is put a bit of paint down with no statutory backing to stop parking.
Ho Hum.

Well put grum p

Until prioroity of the roads is rebalanced away from cars we will not get any decent bike provision.

I am against fully segregated routes however enginneering junctions and other hazards to make it safer for bikes is well worth doing.

Part of the problem is the that we have had decades of planning, both social and urban, promoting car usage so everything is organised in a way what is optimised for cars not people. Segregated work and housing areas, out of town offices / shops. It makes cycling less appealing and less practical. The before you approach the UK population generally very conservative attitude to change and the Top gear mind set..

Older crowded towns such as London, Oxford e.t.c. do better for cycling because they developed largely in a pre-car time so were designed more around people. I am strongly suspicious of the new planning laws, because I expect that most of this new development will continue in the same sprawling manor, just with a solar panel thrown in here and there to cover the sustainable development requirement.

I don’t think cycling in the NL is a cultural thing, it’s cos their country is flat. Hell, it’s so flat it’s almost downhill. Get on the bike, pedal twice and then just roll to wherever you’re going.

Another factor that would help – and I have no idea if this is the case – would be businesses having more and smaller premises, and being prepared to have rural and suburban premises. My old company closed a site because it was too rural and swapped my 20 min walk into work into 45 mins on a motorbike (when I left the bunch of bar stewards). Other people who stayed had commutes go up to as much as 2 hours!

Maybe it’s not such a big deal in the grand scheme, but several hundreds of people had massively increased commutes, loads moved to petrol, and the tossers in charge actually said at one point “we don’t understand why this business HAD so many sites…”.

(Am I still on topic?)

klumpy – Member

I don’t think cycling in the NL is a cultural thing, it’s cos their country is flat. Hell, it’s so flat it’s almost downhill. Get on the bike, pedal twice and then just roll to wherever you’re going.

Its at least partly the result of political decisions. In the 70s cycle use was declining form the post war period and had been for a while. Political decisions were made to make cycling more attractive to people – a rebalance of transport policy away from cars . We seethe results in increasing cycle use. everyone cycles in towns – the school run, to the shops and so on.

Also planning policy has meant the town centres remain where you do your shopping – no out of town huge food stores are allowed.

klumpy – see my point about poor planning. Zones of Housing here, work places over here rather than a mix as historically happened pre mass car use.

Holland is very densely populated [much more so than the UK]
That must have had some bearing on the political decisions to a fair degree

I find all the pessimisim surprising in a way. I suppose as someone who cycles, everywhere, cycling is normal for me. I can see how it could be normal for everyone else too: the inevitable increase in oil prices, the eventual realisation that electric cars won’t do it either as li-ion battery prices skyrocket due to the insane demand compared to the limited amount the earth contains. It’s a slow inevitability, in the UK’s case a very slow inevitability.

uplink – Member
Holland is very densely populated [much more so than the UK]
That must have had some bearing on the political decisions to a fair degree

The population density of Holland is actually comparable to that of England but not the rest of the UK.

Netherlands 402 people per sq km,
England 395 people per sq km,
UK 255 people per sq km.

Total density is unimportant it’s the local density, you can have a low national density but where town are not having poorly made sprawling conurbations resulting in the possibility for more human urban areas.