Update: The Reason Epic Cymru Is Cancelled

After seeking clarification, the organisers of Epic Cymru have sent us a statement outlining the reason it was cancelled. It can be enormously difficult to so much as break even on bike events, and our hearts go out to Matt and the team.

The event has been cancelled due to having lower number of pre-entered riders than required to make the event financially viable. We were not able to cut costs and did not want to change the quality or type of event we offered, so felt there was no other option but to cancel. There are no plans to bring the event back in the future.”

Not wanting to debate this one so much as every time there is an event there is a crowd pops up to claim it’s a rip off, event organisers are pocketing the cash etc. Things like this should probably highlight that events cost money to put on and if you want to do something enter early!!!

I was hoping for a much better rant Mike. Any half assed lakes/austrailian combination could do better than that.

Guilty as charged d. Promised myself I’d do that, procrastinated and there you go. Looked awesome last year.

Try this

Portugal Events

It’s been a long week Steve….

Too much coke and hookers with race organisers I’m afraid

They might not be a rip-off, but if the punters don’t feel like they’re getting value for money then this sort of thing will happen

but if the punters don’t feel like they’re getting value for money

I would hope people think a bit more (doubt it) and realise that things do cost money to put on.

I assume the Portugal link is to somewhere doing cheap events (slow connection here today) – probably with a heavy subsidy/sponsorship

Not an event I’d ever consider entering.

Who is it marketed at?

Got to applaud them for pulling it now rather than the day before the event..

Not too sure a the organisers need too much of a hug either…

But, well Wales is pretty epic.

That’s not really how that works though. E.g. DH races cost a lot to put on, but I sure as hell wouldn’t feel like the £75 SDA entry fee was good value to get 10 runs or so over a weekend.

The worst thing for the organisers is that so many people do not commit until the last minute. In 2013 I organised an event – a 12 hour night race. We had early bird discounts and a significant premium for on the day entries. Still a large number of competitors entered on the day.

It seems that potentially weather conditions/fitness/whether or not my mates are doing it, is much more important than price.

In the event we just broke even, but the sleepless nights in the week before thinking about potential huge losses means I won’t organise another event again.

It was run by a bike club as a charity event BTW, not a “for profit” enterprise.

E.g. DH races cost a lot to put on, but I sure as hell wouldn’t feel like the £75 SDA entry fee was good value to get 10 runs or so over a weekend.

I think you have missed the point of a race, if you want to do 10 runs pay for uplift and Strava it. If you want marshals, timing, first aid camping (ie a race with most of that stuff specified by BC as non negotiable) and all that it costs more.

Got to applaud them for pulling it now rather than the day before the event..

Not too sure a the organisers need too much of a hug either…
At this point they will have already have made a loss, generally these are not big corps who can ride that they are individuals or others who put a lot of effort and time into trying to run events, most do it for the love of it and if they make a profit it will be so far below min wage for the hours they put in it’s probably illegal 😉 I’ve met a lot of people who organise events none are rich, not many do it for the money the do it because they love bikes and want to give something back.

I was pretty surprised at this one tbh, getting over the hump of the first year for an event like this was a big achievement and it seemed to go really well, good word of mouth etc- it sounded like they’d pull in repeat custom and more new excitement. It’s a shame tbh.

TBH it turned out to be not my sort of thing- it initially sounded like it would be- so maybe this is why, but, it’s not been on my radar at all this year? First year it got a lot of media but it seems to have stealthed away this time round. Or maybe I just blanked it all

Arguably sponsorship, or the lack of it is the issue

Plenty of rider/team sponsorship, not much for events?

There is always a number of variables that determine what events work and those which don’t

Enduro sell out, XC is pretty low in many areas, MBO is down to a hard core of Marin riders (only joking), 24 hour races have started to climb out of their slump etc etc

TBH it turned out to be not my sort of thing- it initially sounded like it would be- so maybe this is why, but, it’s not been on my radar at all this year? First year it got a lot of media but it seems to have stealthed away this time round. Or maybe I just blanked it all

I’ve been pondering that a bit – generally, not just with respect to this event. The repeated examples of multi day events failing to last I guess make it pretty clear that it is hard to overcome the risks of the up front costs without a big help from sponsors.

I enjoyed last year’s event but its a fair old commitment of both time and money so I was still trying to figure out if it was something I could justify doing again, even though the news on the event made it sound as though it would be a step up (for me) from last year.

I can’t imagine I’m the only person in that boat, and we are still a long way from August with plenty of time for a push on marketing. But that’s easy for me to say – I wouldn’t want to be the person taking on the risk of a loss in order to get the event established without a deep pockets sponsor to hand.

If only they’d called it epic cymru enduro…

Dyfi sells out in minutes. Maybe they should’ve put whispers out that this event does the same and let viral gossip do the rest.

Edit: and offer freebies – I’m so shallow I entered Ruthin Marathon when it was announced on the chance of winning a wooly hat…

I think you have missed the point of a race, if you want to do 10 runs pay for uplift and Strava it. If you want marshals, timing, first aid camping (ie a race with most of that stuff specified by BC as non negotiable) and all that it costs more.

Nope, it’s “perceived value”, so if people don’t feel it’s worth it theyll stay away.

Perceived value or massively unrealistic expectations?

The worst thing for the organisers is that so many people do not commit until the last minute.

I think last-minute-ness with people booking might be a signal that the market is saturated – that theres too many events. It means people can pick and choose – then they can decide at the last minute on the basis of the weather will be nice or not etc. If theres the sense there’ll be plenty more similar events you can go to if you miss this one then people lose the impetus to get their place booked early.

[Cough] Audax [/Cough]

Yes, I know I’m comparing apples and oranges, and totally different liability and organiser issues.

Isn’t an addax and expensive way to ride by yourself?

MoreCashThanDash – Member

[Cough] Audax [/Cough]

Yes, I know I’m comparing apples and oranges, and totally different liability and organiser issues.

See Ive tried to love Audax, but I just cant. Ive been a member 3 years but still havnt done a ride. There are a few locally but only 1 or 2 that are interesting enough routes to tempt me, date clashes mean ive never rode them. Ive tried to follow the routes a few times but ended up getting bored and just turned off to follow other more interesting local routes I know that avoid climbing big hills just for the sake of getting AAA points. Ive looked at not so local rides that I can get to (by train) and come to the conclusion id rather just go another day and not be on a time limit, giving the option to stop and enjoy or peel off if im not feeling it. So yeah, audax, great if you want a cheap sportive, if you just want to ride with other people join a local club and you get to ride with them every week for the price of 1 audax.

Fair point. I’m lucky I have lots of audax events within an hours drive that have opened up areas that are not quite local enough to ride from home. With quiet roads and cafes already figured out for me.

Still not had the magical intersection between a local event and a free day yet this year though.

Oh and multi-day MTB events, ive done the Trans-Wales back in the day, great in that you get to ride new stuff without having to carry your tent, but the cost was significant for what was essentially a long ride with occasional timed segments. What you were paying for though was broom waggon (which a lot of people used), dodgy food, marquee, start/finish arch, toilets, and transfer of all that crap and your gear between sites. It seemed to me like there was a lot of cost in just moving stuff about, hire of the lorries, drivers, people to pack/unpack stuff etc. Wouldve probably been a lot cheaper for them to run if they could cut a lot of this cost by re-using locations or arranging to use existing facilities like camp sites etc.

A lot of events now seem to take on huge costs providing gimmicks or luxuries to entice people in. I know races are a challenge insurance wise but it seems much of the entry cost now comes due to the need to provide live timing and things like that. I know that attracts the weekend warriors, but regulars are losing series as the costs become too high and the breakeven point goes up, meaning races get cancelled when the regulars alone are no longer enough. It used to be races would run with 30-40 people, now they need 100.

We do now live in a “last minute” world.

When I first did CX races (circa 1987) you saw the ad in the mtb magazine, filled in a paper entry and posted it off.

Whereas now most people do everything online, on the day.

Cost does play into it, but you could do an event that’s much cheaper – look at the Welsh Ride Thing. That’s so cheap its almost free.

When your ride with your mates there are no marshals at every corner, or feed stations, or first aid, or timing chips.

Why do we need these things just because its an organised race. Can we not organise a race and tell everyone its cheap because all these things will be absent ?

Why do we need these things just because its an organised race. Can we not organise a race and tell everyone its cheap because all these things will be absent ?

Depends, can you afford to lose your house when a claim is made against you for injuries/damages?

Cost does play into it, but you could do an event that’s much cheaper – look at the Welsh Ride Thing. That’s so cheap its almost free.

That’s not a race.

crazy-legs – Member

Why do we need these things just because its an organised race. Can we not organise a race and tell everyone its cheap because all these things will be absent ?

Depends, can you afford to lose your house when a claim is made against you for injuries/damages?
[/quote]

Well given its xc the number of marshalls will not be as significant as Dh but you will still need a lot given how much race distance they were planning. You would also need to tape and sign the ‘race’ course. Linking stages need nothing.

“Timed XC and downhill sections will aim to form around 40-50% of the riding, with the remainder being un-timed linking sections. This is done not only to ensure the event sticks within the right of way laws of the UK, but also gives everyone the opportunity to sit up and enjoy the amazing views.”

However as my point above…

•Post stage entertainment, music, videos, slideshows and prize giving

I bet providing this ‘cool factor’ doesn’t come cheap either.

Seems the right thread to praise the ‘Mean and Dirty’ events team.
I entered their ‘Mad Dash in the Park’ winter series after stumbling across it.
They are fantastically well organised with great marshals, St Johns, proper timing chip band, mechanic, food stall, live timings/placement (and sometimes bike wash). The event only costs £15 for an adult! Needless to say that the events sell out well in advance.
I’ll be entering their Enduro series too, £30/race.

I can’t help but wonder if Epic Cymru didn’t miss a trick by saying something like:

“Folks, we’re struggling to get numbers so if you want the event to run please enter soon or we are going to have to pull it…”

Just a thought..

Just because an event is cancelled through lack of pre-orders doesn’t mean there’s no money being made on sportives. Part of the issue these days is calendar bloat, there’s just too many of them and very few have distinguishing features.

I don’t mind paying £30-40 for the odd sportive as long as there’s decent facilities (adequate parking and toilets for starters) and the food isn’t the most basic crap you’d avoid if you saw it in a supermarket. And that’s where a lot of the French, Italian and Spanish sportives get it right – give me decent (preferably home cooked/baked) food on a sportive instead of half an unripe banana + a 10p plain sponge cupcake and I won’t feel ripped off.

If you have to scrub the goodie bag to do it that’s fine by me (I assume with the general quality of crap samples in the average goodie bag that they’re cost neutral anyway). Oh and timing – do sportives really need to spend £10k renting a bells & whistles timing system when 99.9999% of people riding it have their own means of timing (does anyone really care if they get an official gold/silver/bronze standard)?

I think the main issue is saturation in the market. Over the last few years, the ukge has been the main UK series (regardless of whether people like it or not). Now there seems to be far too many race series, so people are likely to pick and choose.

Funnily enough though, Scott’s Southern Enduro series sold out straight away. I know they are different types of events, but they are known to be well organised, marketed and priced.

If i’m honest, it should have been marketed as the trans-wales, taking a similar approach to the provence and savoie. Also riding natural singletrack that might be new to people, rather than bike park wales…..

I’m sticking with perceived. All I expect from a race is good timing and organisation. If others are expecting more then maybe you’re correct that they need to reign that in

Part of the issue these days is calendar bloat, there’s just too many of them and very few have distinguishing features.

&

I think the main issue is saturation in the market.

I can’t help but think that there’s a lack of communication between some events ergo a lack of co-ordination as to whose doing what & when…

I could be wrong…?

Isn’t an addax and expensive way to ride by yourself?

you sound exactly like a closet audaxer….. grumble grumble 3 quid grumble grumble…..

Oh and timing – do sportives really need to spend £10k renting a bells & whistles timing system when 99.9999% of people riding it have their own means of timing (does anyone really care if they get an official gold/silver/bronze standard)?

This shows that it must be hard to judge the market. Decent timing is an essential part of a sportive for me. If it wasn’t properly timed I wouldn’t bother. I don’t think I am in the .00001% of riders either. Most people seem to want to know how well it badly they have done. Don’t forget what is happening here is a product of the success of these events as a whole. The market would’nt have become saturated if their popularity hadn’t encouraged people to try and stage them

Cost of MTB events don’t bother me, I’ve paid over 100 quid for a fantastically well organised weekend of riding at Ardrock this year, that’s about the price of a Spurs or Arsenal ticket.

I think that is good value.

This shows that it must be hard to judge the market. Decent timing is an essential part of a sportive for me. If it wasn’t properly timed I wouldn’t bother. I don’t think I am in the .00001% of riders either. Most people seem to want to know how well it badly they have done.

A mate of mine runs a few Sportives although more as marketing for his cycling tours organisation. He keeps them dead simple and cheap. No timing. Top quality food. His rationale is that everyone has a GPS cycle computer, everyone is on Strava so why should he double up on that with expensive transponders.

Far better to knock the entry fee down by £5 and put on some really top notch food instead. His feed stations are always good locally sourced foods and back at the finish he’s got “street food” type stuff on the go, a huge curry or chilli.

And his events are always sold out.
I’m the same, I think one of the worst aspects of Sportives is this pseudo-race mindset and one of the contributory factors to shit riding standards is people in pursuit of a “time”.

Most people seem to want to know how well it badly they have done

How can you do badly at a sportive? If you want to do badly don’t you enter a race?

How can you do badly at a sportive? If you want to do badly don’t you enter a race?

If they publish it in a list you can see you are faster than other people, I mean you have no idea if they were blowing out their arse like you as they could be fast guys who stopped for cake, a sunday lunch and a few pints, but its an ego boost for some. Just like being above average on a strava segment you turned yourself inside out for but everyone else just did as part of a ride.

What STATO said ^^.

Last Sportive I did was with my partner, we stopped at a Costa mid-ride as well. I think we took nearly 5hrs to do the route, a route I know I can smash round in less than half that time if I’m properly going for it.
Therefore timing is meaningless, an unnecessary expense. I’d rather my money went to the food!

That said, it can also be a fail-safe, an easy way of checking who has signed on, who is where on the circuit (assuming you have intermediate timing points) and who made it back to HQ. If it gets to the end of the day and you still have 1 person who has not crossed the finish line, you know you have a problem!