franksinatra – Member
How do you actually breed dogs to look like that? I don’t understand the practicalities of it. Do they get two dos with slightly slopping back to breed to have puppies with very slopping backs?

not exactly, but sort of.

breed enough puppies, and some of them will have the characteristics you’re looking for. some of those will be even more pronounced.

the rest get drowned, for not being the right shape*.

(choosing the parents with the characteristics you’re looking for just shortens the odds in your favour a bit – there’s still a lot of selection/drowning)

(*which is a constantly moving target: last years show-winning inbred, won’t be inbred enough to win the same show next year)

the rest get drowned, for not being the right shape*

The rest get sold as pets.

Selective breeding.. They breed as many animals as they possibly can, get the ones that they think look nice to breed, and discard the rest.

Rince and repeat until you get what you want. The end result is a very small gene pool, so you get a lot of health issues

The best dogs are muts, happy and healthy.

you’re right of course, i was hyperbolically emphasizing that ‘breeding’ is as much about the elimination of individuals that don’t pass the selection criteria, as it is about selecting show-winners.

Time this type of thing was knocked on the head. The dogs have changed/mutated so much from what they originally looked like.

What they “originally looked like” before human interference is some sort of now extinct ancient wolf, this is just an extreme example of how all domestic dogs came into existence. We breed dogs to do things that we want, like be good at retrieving prey, or being docile, or looking a certain way, none of which they would do naturally. Breeds have come and gone as fashions changed, or as excessive inbreeding made certain types unviable. It’s just part of the history of the domestic dog. Loads of breeds have health issues of various types because of it, a number of studies show that mongrels normally have higher life expectancies, and they’re generally only a couple of generations away from a ‘breed’ dog, so who knows what health benefits undoing millennia of inbreeding could have.

Of course if we took dogs back to what they “originally looked like” then they probably wouldn’t be such a great lifestyle accessory. Difficult to take photos of it asleep by the woodburner if it’s crapping everywhere and lunging for your face I guess. What you actually want is the correct level of breeding that allows you to have a docile companion or working dog, without looking too much like a freak show on the outside.

Very bold statement give they struggling even with DNA tracing to find when and how dogs developed to where they are now.

Interesting too if we did take wolve pups that some how they didn’t kill everyone lime you claim would happen if they were still like their origins.

KC are scum, pure and simple. My folks knew all this when we had a working breed GSD and its still the same story with Wolfhounds (luckily they got theirs from a breeder who is determined to breed out the health problems rather than following doctrine).

The sloping back can actually be done depending on how you get the dog to stand but I have never seen a dog permanently stuck like that.

I have little time for the KC and associated breeders, I don’t believe they prioritise the best interests of the breeds they represent.

The below is a statement the GSD go GB have issued.

Statement now in:

Statement from the GSD League of Great Britain incorporating the British Regional Groups and Working Dog Branches
Re GSD Best of Breed at Crufts 2016
The GSD League condemns most strongly the manner in which the Kennel Club and the Crufts presenters have created public hysteria regarding the German Shepherd Bitch who gained Best of Breed at Crufts 2016 under breed specialist judge, Davy Hall.
With complete disregard for all of the many breed specialist judges, including highly regarded judges from the breed’s country of origin, that have awarded this bitch top honours at both Kennel Club and WUSV shows, the Channel 4 coverage acted as judge, jury and hangman without any balance of reporting.
Cruaghaire Catoria is a correct type to the German Shepherd Dog standard, she has a KC/BVA hip score of 13 and elbow score of 0 – these scores are well below the maximum for showing at WUSV shows, the Kennel Club have no minimum standard for showing or breeding purposes. She is a fit, healthy, family dog.
The judge, Davy Hall, of the Gayville’s GSDs kennels has been an exhibitor and breeder of GSDs for many years having bred, owned, trained and handled many top winning animals and Champions including the current breed CC record holder.
After being awarded Best of Breed, Catoria was then passed by the appointed Crufts vet to certify that she was fit and healthy to enter the big ring. She had passed another vet health check 6 months earlier. Indeed, no GSD has ever failed a vet health test at a Championship Show since they were introduced as part of the KC’s Breed Watch.
German Shepherd Dogs are generally shown outside and certainly very few have ever experienced anything like the Crufts Best In Show ring. This young bitch performed extremely well in her breed ring but shortly afterwards in the main arena became overwhelmed by the environment and did not show her true beauty or proper movement, she was not the only dog to react badly to the pressure of the situation. Her internationally renowned handler Craig Rice, who has handled at the top level for many years, explained what took place in the lead up to the group judging and in the main arena….
After a foot perfect performance in the GSD Breed ring, where Tori gained Best of Breed in a high quality entry that included 2 VA rated Dogs, we were taken to do the KC appointed Vet Check. The Vet stated that there was absolutely no possible reason that he could not pass Tori as she showed no signs of bad health and her movement was not impaired in any way. This test included movement of the dog.
After a long wait of over 3 hours, which includes numerous forced photo shoots in the Crufts Best of Breed collection ring, we were finally abruptly told we would be entering the main Arena. This is a situation that no owner, trainer or handler can prepare for. A packed auditorium with hot lights, music, loud speakers and constant cheers and clapping is not an everyday occurrence for any dog. Unfortunately, after a further wait whilst inside the Arena, Tori had become quite agitated. I had tried to calm her by allowing her move around a little but was repeatedly told that I must not let the dog move at all. By the time we were judged Tori was in a high level of distress and was struggling to cope with the situation, which seemed to worsen after the judges rough handling, whilst checking the teeth, of a clearly stressed dog. Tori’s uncharacteristic erratic behaviour has clearly given a bad impression of what I consider a GSD of the highest standard in both construction and health test results.
German Shepherd Breeders lead the World in their attention to health testing and breeding selection and whilst they must not be complacent about any exaggerations in conformation or temperament, the breed should not be victimised in this way by the Kennel Club, the media and social media.
German Shepherd exhibitors have a viable alternative to Kennel Club shows and it is of no surprise that more and more are turning their back on traditional UK shows in favour of the WUSV style show where DNA recording, identification and health tests are pre-requisites, not afterthoughts. All dogs are graded and critiqued so that their owners and breeders are given a clear picture of what they need to do to improve in the next generation. This is a great responsibility for the judges who are trained to a high level and have to have considerable experience as breeders before they are approved.
The GSD League will continue to strive to consult with the Kennel Club on matters regarding health of the GSD and hope that our suggestion of piloting compulsory identification of all exhibits, health testing prior to confirmation of Champion title and mandatory minimum health test requirements for all breeding animals will one day become a reality.
German Shepherd Dog League
http://www.gsdleague.co.uk
http://www.gsdl-brg.co.uk
http://www.gsdleague-workingbranch.com

Oh, that’s ok then. The dog is perfectly healthy but the environment and handling we subjected it to in the sole aim of winning a prize was by his own admission stressful for the dog. Glad you’re not bullying deliberately deformed dogs, that would be cruel….

By the time we were judged Tori was in a high level of distress and was struggling to cope with the situation, which seemed to worsen after the judges rough handling, whilst checking the teeth, of a clearly stressed dog

So why did he not just take the dog outside then and forget about the whole show/judging thing?

Cruaghaire Catoria is a correct type to the German Shepherd Dog standard

That provides no comfort, the standard is the problem.

Anyway, statements are a waste of time, the only way to knock this one on the head is to invite a film crew along to the breeders home to show the dog running around playing and being doggy outside. If there is nothing wrong with it, that will be pretty obvious from some quality footage of it outside of the show ring.

I doubt those dogs could do this (my marley)

A beautiful dog that, and exactly how it should look.

I remember as a young Air Cadet visiting the kennels at RAF Newtown where the police dogs were kept. They had a pen area outside of each individual kennel with chain link fencing about 8 feet high. When we were there they were extending the chain link to create a roof as the dogs had starting escaping by getting over the fence!

The term is called “roaching”, not quite sure how it got that term but that’s what the SO says, she was sat with one of the breeders watching at the event.She had to leave half way through the showing for damage control.

Most of the crowd actually gasped in shock when that GSD came out, something you dont hear or see in the footage. That judge in particular is a fan of this “roaching” style and actually encourages it for show dogs.

Bit confused here.

KC seems to promote inbreeding of dogs to actually make the dog defects even worse.

People on here and around the country are outraged and on their high horses

STW is always full of peeps asking which designer dog is the most suitable for their little family. Cost no issue, friendly and fashionable the be all and end all. Cockerpoo, labradoodle etc etc.

Is there much difference?

Personally i see a nice healthy dog which is well behaved and enjoying itself and my heart melts. Society today, including STW seems to have a lot of pre determined requirements from dogs which FEED the unethical breeders business model.

Bit confused here.

Confused? If I were you I’d be terrified!

There is a difference between selectively breeding positive traits into animals (or indeed vegetables / crops) and selectively breeding ‘desirable but ultimately negative’ traits.

For example spaniels with the recessive PRA gene. Identifying dogs with the gene and only breeding to dogs which don’t have the gene, thus avoiding the condition is a good thing, no? Conversely, finding excessively wrinkly pugs so you can breed them with other excessively wrinkly pugs to make them even more wrinkly, might fit an ill-conceived notion that pugs should be as wrinkly as possible but in terms of animal health is stupid.

Op – Ridgebacks being deformed ? Please explain.

IIRC, the ‘ridge’ that gives the breed its name is born of a genetic deformity equivalent to spina-bifida.
In fact, many of these dogs supposedly have a tiny hole located at the base of their coat near the tail, an open hole that leads directly into the spine/spinal fluid.

Many aspects of dog breeding are simply disgusting. The huge amounts of problems bred into most fancy breeds staggers belief. My sister recently bought a pedigree Bulldog – and whilst I can see the appeal, I was so disappointed with her. Far too many reasons not to breed Bulldogs these days, they can barely function.
Watch a ‘super-vet’ type show for 5mins and you’ll find a feckless owner being told his/her dog is barely fit for life, let alone breeding and their response is almost always ‘yeah, but, i wanna breed it’.
And so the circle continues.
Money talks.

@ TheLittlestHobo – you’ve made some good points there.

So long as people have a list of ‘requirements’ of what they expect a dog to look like then someone will breed dogs to suit.

This is what happens when things don’t go according to plan;
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/03/10/rspca-dead-puppies-puppy-farm-st-albans-hertfordshire_n_9429246.html
https://www.peterborough.gov.uk/news/business/illegal-puppy-trader-sentenced-to-34-months-in-prison/

The punishment for poor puppy breeding is laughable but the gains can be considerable. Many small scale back street breeders add to the problem. As Slimjim says “money talks”.

I think that the KC legitimises the unhealthy traits in dogs to a degree but owners and potential owners need to look at themselves as they create a market place for unscrupulous puppy breeders. I wouldn’t want to criticise people for wanting the latest designer cross breed or pedigree as choice is a good thing but they need to be more aware of how their choices affect the breeders and the dogs.

I see no reason why the handler at Crufts couldn’t take the GSD away from the environment that was causing it to be stressed.

Fully functioning rescue mongrel is happily snoring downstairs at the moment and I doff my cap to anyone who adopts a senior rescue dog.

but they need to be more aware of how their choices affect the breeders and the dogs.

Trouble is, 95% of potential dog owners just want a dog, and they have a fixed idea of what type they want. The slightly conscientious ones may consider ‘a reputable breeder, with KC backing’ – but what does that really give them?
Some may also find a dog advertised locally and even if conditions aren’t looking good they will likely think ‘oh but i’m just one person and I want to help home that poor puppy, what harm can I do alone?’.
So the circle is complete and the racket continues.

‘Scuse the pun but you need to vet breeders in the same way that any responsible one will vet potential owners.

I’m sure the vast majority of us agree with you CG – It’s just the other how ever many million ‘dog lovers’ in Britain follow through on that action.

Oh, and the government should put a stop to dogs being sold on Gumtree etc.

slimjim78 – I invested considerable time when choosing a puppy and didn’t have the internet to help, my phone bill and petrol costs were horrendous. Mind you I thought less folk were choosing dogs due to time constraints, vet bills and other costs. Are there any reliable figures available for dog ownership year by year?

Used to have neighbours who bred french bulldogs. The family were the kind of parasites on society who never worked, never cleaned, never did anything. Basically left their garage door open for the dogs to come and go. Shit everywhere and breed. When they cut the grass every 6 months, the guy had to wear a bio suit and everyone was sent indoors.

They got a GSD to breed of but the thing couldnt handle being left in the back garden without any company. It was going batshit mental so they got rid (I dont know how).

I have absolutely no time for breeders, wether they are dog lovers or not. If they cant see that in their own actions they are actually harming the breed then imo they have no right to call themselves dog lovers.

I dont even have a dog. I dont have the time required to look after one at the moment even though my two kids are desperate for one. I love dogs and my wife love dogs. IMO that makes me 100x more of a dog lover than these people who feed the industry because i wont sacrifice the well being of a dog until i am 100%.

Its all a mess and i’m not sure how it can be fixed

turns out the owner of the dog is the breeder I got Marley (above) from. I watched the video and the dog looks really stressed and pulling which is going to make it look worse. Marley has a good hip score just like his parents which the breeder made a point of saying she only bred good hip scores. her other litters are all good as well so not sure why she would have a dog that had low hips like that unless it still has a good hip score.

The Kennel Club have released this statement on their website,
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/press-releases/2016/march/german-shepherd-dog-statement/
I doubt anything will be done.

All I can see is:

Blah, blah, blah.

Blah, blah, blah, blah.

Blah, blah.

As a friend once asked of Crufts: “Is there an award for bleakest genetic cul-de-sac?”

my dogs don’t seem to give a shit what I look like. I owe them the same. Feel sorry for the unlucky ones on crufts, hope the owners rosettes are worth it. This needs time calling on it, not what sharing your life with a dog should be about.

As such d before u dislike the breeding for aesthetics. Hate seeing fat/unhealthy dogs in general.
But then for those outside of crufts etc it comes down to owners too lazy to exercise them/feed them properly.

We have a German short haired pointer. From working stock,not KC registered and couldn’t care about it. Great parents, and a lovely energetic healthy dog.
CG as for stats for costs, I guess that depends on owners. There will be seem who don’t insure dogs and feed cheap crap like pedigree. Others who pamper with ridiculous amounts of stuff.

I expect roughly 1.5-2k for us. Between insurance, food, vet appointments etc.