hora – Member

At least they don’t have false google-links yet where you click through and its a different price..

Actually, they do. All the time.

Oh. Great. That really annoys me.

I don’t run a business, so this may be oversimplified.

CRC buy goods from someone (manufacturer direct? Distributor? The tooth Fairy) and then sell it to us, the punter.

LBS buy from distributor (who buy from manufacturer) then the LBS sells to us.

But the LBS have difficulty competing on price. Would this be because the LBS have to go through someone who are taking their cut that CRC dont (if CRC are buying direct from the manufacturer and bypassing a distributer) or because the LBS aren’t able to buy at the same price as CRC from the distributor?

If the former, the LBS is on a hiding to nothing on price, so may have to look in other directions to survive. If the manufacturer is happy to sell product to an online retailer direct at the risk of putting the LBS out of business, then should the ire be aimed at CRC or the manufacturer?

If the latter, then the distributor may be shooting themselves in the foot by selling to CRC at a reduced price (maybe due to economies of scale) to a point where the LBS cannot compete. Either allow the LBS to buy from the distributor at similar prices than CRC can buy at or web savvy punters will buy it online and look online for fitting instructions and the tools to DIY.

So my point (if I have one) is that CRC are buying and selling a product. LBS are selling the same product. If the LBS cant buy it cheaper than CRC can sell it, maybe the LBS might want to ask their suppliers why?

(again apologies if this is ridiculously over simplified)

Would this be because the LBS have to go through someone who are taking their cut that CRC dont (if CRC are buying direct from the manufacturer and bypassing a distributer) or because the LBS aren’t able to buy at the same price as CRC from the distributor?

Usually the latter.

Why? Because that’s how business works – buy big and you get discounts. Buy big enough and you can sell for less than a small competitior can buy it for.

I think strategically CRC are becoming more and more a distributor/taking on new brands, soaking up existing where the brand isnt being ‘fully supported’ (i.e. sales-wise).

So CRC get the full-whack but they also get the full exposure to risk.

Again, someone grew his business, opened himself to risk and financial ruin to build his business.

Sick of people bleating about ‘but I have a shop to run’ (no you have a lease).

This fella/CRC has/had to invest in premises (big ones I imagine), warehousing, computer stock-systems, auditing, staff, transport and customer service dept back up.

Far more risk and hardwork.

I think strategically CRC are becoming more and more a distributor/taking on new brands, soaking up existing where the brand isnt being ‘fully supported’ (i.e. sales-wise).

I though CRC = Hotlines and essentially therefore they are a distributor…

The question has to be asked I suppose, how come say Madison Can’t distribute XT Mechs to your LBSs at Comparable prices to those that CRC “Acquire” the same part at?

Simple Answer CRC can take their Bulk buying power and shop around the various European distributors buying in OEM quantities, they can buy bikes at wholesale prices and simply strip them for parts, basically they find ways to exploit the common market and their Size/buying power…

A single LBSs can’t compete with that, I’m not saying it’s wrong for them to use that advantage, but the distributors are certainly not helping LBSs to compete. Chain stores (Evans for instance) have a bit of a chance except they still have much higher overheads to cover at each store location, and they are Souless bastards therefore they’ll stick to fleecing the young and ill informed…

I’m sure someone mentioned a few pages back 🙄 Finnish Bike Shops Banding together to buy stock as a consortium of sorts to try and nudge prices down, perhaps that’s the route for UK LBSs to take? For a few savvy LBSs to pool their resources (Obviously still remaining independent), and maybe purchase in sufficient quantities to get some volume discounts. After all this is the age of “Coalition” and those are always such unmitigated successes…. Oh…

I think the rather odd nationally-based “strategy” that the original article suggested would be illegal anyway under EU competition rules (and quite right too).

Having thought about it for a bit too long now

For any shop to survive they are going to have to take the initiative in some way CRC took the initiative a while back by jumping into the online retailer game, that ship has now largely sailed, it would take more time and resources than most can easily stump up to compete with the now established Big boys…

So how does a shop survive (and indeed Grow) now?

I reckon the ones that manage to survive will be those with good locations (Town/City Centers) that manage to get hold of commuters and offer them a bit more than a scabby old Hybrid and some passive aggressive sales patter… Ignore the seasoned MTB/Road/BMX consumers, their shopping will be done at CRC mostly, the enevitable Death of the Car in this country has to mean a resurgence in Bicycle commuting, and people getting back on a bike for the first time in 15-20 years will value the advice and personal service of a GOOD Bike shop… All the others will blame CRC and Die…

Right I’m off to disappoint the missus with Super market flowers and a trip to the Cinema….

Well Done you’ve seized an a minor turn of phrase and used it as the jumping off point for a mini diatribe

cookeaa – I guess you were off school the day they explained irony then…

Given Juan has just reiterated the point about the ethical shortcomings of people who buy from CRC, I think my point in defence of “buy it cheap and fit it yourself” still stands. To simplify it down for you – I like fixing my own bike, I enjoy it and find it satisfying, especially when I learn how to do something new. If that still offends you, I guess you’ll just have to go find something to kick.

I was in one of the bike shops in central Glasgow yesterday, (looking for a helmet) and they seemed pretty busy with people trying bikes, buying bikes and so on. Their workshop section seemed pretty busy as well, so I suspect that there is still a market for bike shops delivering good quality customer service to people who are either new to cycling, or don’t have the time/inclination/skills to service and maintain their own bikes. I still don’t feel any compulsion to drive the 24 mile round trip regularly enough to invest the time to build a relationship with someone, so I can ask them to discount their prices to somewhere near the level of CRC. If I ever have a need for them to undertake some mechanical work on my bike, it wouldn’t cross my mind to haggle for a discount.

A related point… I suspect CRC are starting to notice that they’ve got competition from other EU-based online retailers too.

I’ve seen a few threads on here lately with links to German and French sites offering nice MTB kit at much lower prices than CRC, Merlin etc. Not to mention Jenson USA – who I’ve used a few times myself.

So while the Spanish might be complaining, some firms from other EU nations are taking them on at their own game.

CRC buy goods from someone (manufacturer direct? Distributor? The tooth Fairy) and then sell it to us, the punter.

They often bring in ‘official’ warranty-free grey imports (but this f*cks over companies buying ‘black’ imports) and sell them straight to retail, and due to the sheer volume they buy often get their own pricing tiers from ‘black’ distributors (not to mention emptying distributors’ warehouses).

It’s nothing new – when I was a mechanic 15 years ago we were buying Campag at trade what Ribble (who imported it grey) were selling at retail. There was no way we could touch those prices and make any semblance of a profit. However, I worked with one of the best wheel builders in East Anglia and people would travel to speak to him.

Neither are illegal, but both do f*ck over the competition. You could argue that it’s good business sense, but it does also destroy elements of the trade.

What it does mean is that LBSs have to do other things better, and the obvious answer here is personal service.

very good point chakaping.

And one I think kind of illustrates my point. It wont be (good) retailers that come out of the CRC war badly, they’ll find a route, it will be the national importers/wholesalers. As I said in my earlier post, the internet brings down trading costs and brings parties closer together whether that be customer and manufacturer or retailer and manufacturer.

When you no longer need a local aggregator for stock supply and online resources are spreading the word about products, where is the need for a local distributor? Increasingly marginalised IMO.

As far as I can see they’ve taken the initiative, found some ways of growing and are doing well from it. So they use grey imports, with that they take the risk of having to organise risk of the “warranty” themselves – which they do, and still grow.

Back when I was in the game we did the same, despite being a small online/mail order place we got nice pricing from the distributors and also imported grey products (and oddly enough sold them to america at massively inflated prices where those prices were cheap as chips).

You get what you can where you can, those who complain are simply too slow to find solutions.

That reminds me, I need a new cassette – order in with CRC.

I do still pay LBS prices for LBS products and LBS advice. I’m happy to go see them and pay a bit extra. But that doesnt stop them doing mail order and getting the nearly all same benefits themselves.

if the LBS is going to survive in the long term they need to stop trying to compete with the massive on-line retailers (and also fitting parts for free) otherwise they slowly bleed to death and will close their doors

the LBS can add value that the on-line retailer cannot; not perhaps for the experienced riders who spend hours geeking up on the latest parts on the internet and know what they want, have a toolset at home with a workstand and shop on price

but the LBS can support the less experienced riders with good advice and after-sales care, and develop a good business around retailing box brands like Specialized and Trek who will not allow their bikes to be sold on-line, test / demo rides can lead to regular sales

clothing is another profitable avenue for the LBS (its hard to try clothing on, using the internet) if managed properly – to avoid the p*ss takers who try stuff on in the store and then shop on-line, which is just damn rude!

the biggest potential gains for the LBS is to reduce the retail side of the business and expand the servicing and fitment side of the business as workshops can be very profitable, especially for fitting components supplied by customers who have purchased them on-line and either lack the skillset or toolset to do the work themself, or for regular recreational and commuting customers who want to keep their bike running and have no technical knowledge

hora – Member

Attention Bike shop owners. You too can invest and become a profitable and successful business if you take a risk and have a business brain.

Should customers pay for your inefficiency or lack of investment?

CRC grew because they worked hard and invested money.

Not according to Big_n_daft, I’m pressuming he/she was implying (on page 1 or 2) they are/were financed indirectly by god, via his paramilitary foot soldiers, be they roman catholic or protestant. It sounds like gossip to me, but I thought I’d throw it back in the mix to keep this running for a few more pages. 😆

CRC financed by the NI paramilitaries?

Some interesting points there, apart from Skyline-GTR’s, who just comes across as a pompous nobber of the highest order.

My local bike shop must be doing ok as whenever I want anything done it it takes a minimum of 2 weeks (even for a truing a wheel) – I’m not complaining about this, just pointing out that a good LBS will always be popular and do a roaring trade, whereas crap ones will fall by the wayside. Maybe that’s why the Skyline-GTR is so vehement in his hatred of CRC and its customers? If his internet persona is anything like his real world one then I wouldn’t be surprised if people take their business elsewhere. On the the plus side if it all goes tits up he could always go back to hitting little white balls round a field.

I’ve spent £100s, probably £1000s over the years in CRC/Merlin/Wiggle and have never once had a bad experience. I’ve tried several bike shops where I live and it took me quite a while to find one I could trust. Not all LBS are equal.

“James, stop using Halfrauds as your LBS. Find a good one”
I’ve never used Halfords
I live near(ish) Rotherham and sort of near Sheffield if that helps narrow it down ..
There is a local road shop I’ve used for straigtening/tensioning wheels better, else everywhere else I know of is a bit too much of an outing to get to, given that on the whole I can’t bring myself to trust much of what bike shops say or do with some of the stuff some of them come out with

“when the l.b.s.’s are gone, the only people who will be able to ride bikes will be the people who know how to fix them”
How do you think these people learnt how to fix them in the first place? Only wheelbuilding is not just following instructions really?

[“We all know the the big problem that shops and distributors have with online selling from shops which specialise in selling outside their own territory at low cost.

This problem would disappear if the prices of the products were equal, so the customers wouldn’t have any interest in buying abroad what they have at home.

Obviously, the shops who sell online outside their territory are aware of this situation and know what to do… They will always have to sell cheaper to have demand and sell more than the rest of the shops.”]

EPIC FAIL

This guy must be a simple, a couple of sandwiches short if you know what I mean… If he had any idea or education about market forces or the rules and laws of trading I am sure he would rethink his rant on pricing. Not to mention that everything he suggests is completely illegal regarding price fixing and EU trading…
http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?itemId=1073792322&type=RESOURCES

At the end of the day we are talking about a shop.

I’m going to picket moonpig to stop the removal of Clinton cards from my high street.

Who gives a ****?

‘Supporting the local community’ – means building rappoire for future sales/keep customers and soak up sales.

‘Shop rides’ means ‘ah, we’ve actually just got those forks in punter’ or ‘we can order those for you’..

As a rule of thumb. If it has a till as the central/focal point then it aint no charidee…

Anyone who thinks otherwise is a tad naive.

Poor Hora. Your whole life must be such a struggle. Everyone is trying to rip you off or take advantage of you. It must be really difficult living with that level of paranoia.

Cynical hora meets fluffy-bunny druidh

Hora – you know what, sometimes things are actually quite nice in the real world and people aren’t out to get you.

Ask anyone who comes out on a wed with us and they will universally tell you it is nothing more than a ride with like minded individuals and the shop brain gets turned off by the guys at 6pm on the dot.

Oh and you should see how much kit we DON’T sell to our regulars.

Did you suffer some sort of ‘experience’ whilst a youth to make you so bitter?

Who said anything about ‘out to get you’. ❓

Its a retailer/business. Lets not pretend or dress up retailing as something else.

I just find it odd that people try to romantise one specific segment of retailing.

I’d like to add that Hora was exactly the bloke who would come into the shop with something bought online/elsewhere and try and get advice/repair/warranty.

Hora – Remember that RM9 you bought for riding in Hampstead heath; the ex-shop/demo bike sight unseen RM9 from a shop on the North Shore? Yep. We had to ‘fix’ the stupid thing. That was just the start. 😉

I’d also like to reiterate that I am on his side as far as CRC goes, but he’s making a hash of defending the point.

Fortunately CRC can stand up for themselves pretty well anyway.

They’re probably reading this thinking “for god sake Hora stop posting!”

Hora = member no. 1 of ‘Big Society’ 😉

Oh god it was that awful bloody bikeshop.

Who is defending CRC? Look back a few posts and you’ll see I wasn’t entirely happy with CRC.

Staff make a bikeshop. As I’ve said before service and mechanical ability is king at Evans Manchester (even if the prices aren’t).

We had to ‘fix’ the stupid thing

I realise (hope) this is tongue-in-cheek but surely this is exactly where an LBS can make a heap of money. Nothing wrong with what Hora does – he keeps mechanics in business

£100 to build a bike. 😐

£100 to build a bike

If you’ve bought all the parts elsewhere then ask a bike shop to assemble them, I don’t think that is too unreasonable, particularly if that includes wheel building too. Granted I’ve only ever built one bike so I’m no expert, but I do at least know what is involved.

If you’ve bought all the parts elsewhere then ask a bike shop to assemble them, I don’t think that is too unreasonable, particularly if that includes wheel building too. Granted I’ve only ever built one bike so I’m no expert, but I do at least know what is involved.

When I was a mechanic in the late ’90s it was £70 to build a bike. £100 seems a pretty good deal, especially if that includes building wheels and facing the BB, headtube and rear brake mount.

Ditto. Sounds like a fair price to me.

Is Hora actually a real person?

It does seem like he is ‘ripped off’ all the time 🙄

Perhaps he should become the next Mary Portas.

I would have thought £100 for building a bike would be a reasonable charge, even without building a set of wheels from scratch.

£100 is a lot of money excluding building wheels and that’s 8yrs ago. A decent mechanic could turn it around quickly.

The ironic thing is the staff are paid peanuts, a bikeshop manager is paid poorly for long hours/crummy day off and the owner takes the spoils in most cases.

(Yes I know there are the quiet times for small indies in odd locations)

…But that’s retail the world over!

sounds like a really easy life would be setting up a bike shop. you simply rent a shop, hire some underpaid greasemonkeys and roll around in the profit?

So easy, I’m surprised that Hora – with all his insider knowledge and good advice – isn’t already bigger than Evans.

Oh – I meant Evans the bike shop, not Evans the shop for the larger woman*

* although I can see how one might be easily confused.

Now your oversimplifying

I miss my old LBS in Wolves – Fred Williams Cycles – as it was staffed with knowledgeable witty folks who lived cycling. Unlike the big chains most towns have they did discounts, the kinda make you feel good discounts.

However, we all live the in real world and money is hard to come by and this is not a cheap sport. Anyone who shops just in one place will get ripped off. If you are canny you shop around. When the exchange rate with the USA was favourable I shopped at Jenson for forks and even ebay for a frame.

I buy from CRC, Merlin, Wiggle, Woolly Hat Shop, Ribble, St John Street Cycles, On One, Evans, fleabay etc depending on where is cheapest. My three LBS shops are all chains and average would be a generous description.

If there are problems for retailers with their distributors then they need to take that up with them, or vote with their feet and go to a different distributor. Bellyaching isn’t going to sort it.