Short version – what’s an appropriate amount of time to wait before kicking off over the replacement of a a new frame that cracks within 2 months / 8 rides?

Long version…

Two months ago I bought an expensive full suss frame (of the “All Mountain” variety so expected to be tough enough for Wales / Trail Centres) over the internet from a well know retailer, had about 8 rides on it and after a few teething problems really loved it. Cleaning it up after last ride I found a big crack in the rear chainstay where welded to the suspension pivot, scared me a bit given the speed I’d been going that weekend.

I got in touch with the retailer, and they’ve told me they had to get in touch with the distibutor. Waited and supplied photos / details for them to do that, to be told waiting for distributor to get back. When they did, message was the distributor was taking it up with the manufacturer, supplied more details and after chasing again told I’ve got to wait until the manufacturer gets back to the distributor gets back to the retailer… 😥

This has been going on for 2 1/2 weeks now and I haven’t even sent the frame off yet, not sure how long until I get a working one back in my hands. Given what I’ve just spent on the frame and the amount of business I’ve put their way in the past I’m really not feeling the customer service love.

I know the retailers have got more of these frames in stock, can I demand they sort me out with one of them and how long’s reasonable to wait before doing so? (Given my natural reaction was by return of post but realise that’s probably a bit unreasonable…)

The retailer won’t normally supply a new frame till given the ok by the distributer/manufacturer but once that happens it should be fairly rapid if they have them in stock. 2 1/2 weeks is getting a bit long but then it could be that the person who can ok this is on holiday as happened with me last year.

Once the ok was given it all went very smoothly, cheers Jungle 😉

Guidence on the sale of goods act.

Your contract is with the retailor not the distributor. Read the guidance and decide which parts apply. You should insist on a replacement or your money back – you should have no financial loss whatsoever.

Wherever goods are bought they must “conform to contract”. This means they must be as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality (i.e. not inherently faulty at the time of sale).

Q13. What does the “reversed burden of proof” mean for the consumer?

It means that for the first six months the consumer need not produce any evidence that a product was inherently faulty at the time of sale. If a consumer is seeking any other remedy the burden of proof remains with him/her.

Give the retailer a deadline to agree to replace or refund or else its small claims court time

TJ’s beaten me to it!

I’d post the frame back to the retailer in the mean time.They might want it back before they send out/approve a new frame ect.

Thanks for the thoughts and the link, my gut feel is it’s time to start pushing for action but I know how emotion can get in the way of a reasonable course of action. Sounds like I’m not being too out of order

Cheers

Matt

Don’t be fobbed off with any guff about distributors or manufacturers – its the retailers responsibility and they have to repair / replace or refund.

I think consumers direct has form letters

do not just send it back you will need a contact or returns number, as you are not letting us know the retailer ( large or small) this could just get put on a pile of retuns and get lost and drag your problem out even longer

If it’s any consulation, I’m now on week 8 of waiting for a new frame to come from the manufacturer following my warranty claim.

TJ is right. Retailers responsibility, regardless of what they may say.

Make sure when it’s sent back that you have a name and contact number for the person who will be dealing with it, ideally some kind of returns/reference number for your particular case as well. Keep copies of any paperwork and make sure you have photos of the frame/bike and the defect.

I’m sure everything will be fine but it covers you against any “oh it must have got lost in the post” moments. I used to deal with warranty claims for a well known bike shop and some companies were a pleasure to deal with (Hope, Specialized, Trek, Zyro), others (notably Cannondale) were a total pain and took forever.

Your contract is with the retailer – most manufacturers & distributors won’t deal direct with the public. I’ll assume for the moment that you’re telling the truth and it’s not a JRA or crash etc (!) so just keep in regular contact with the shop and be polite but firm.

Sorry to be off topic a little….
Matt P: Did you sell your ti456?

Its not a Commencal is it? Might want to join the queue unfortunately…

The retailer is at the mercy of the supplier in terms of getting you a new frame from them. However, if they have got frames in stock then it should (with the evidence you have supplied) be easy enough to give you a new frame and get a credit back to the shop from the supplier.

I used to work for a dealer and some warranties were dealt with in a day over the phone (marin, trek), some took months… Cannondale… jeesus what a bloody nightmare. Luck of the draw, but from previous experience i know which bike manufacturers to avoid just in case.

Keep hounding them, but be nice. The less they have to deal with you by sorting it out quickly the better for all.

Send the distributor a letter telling them that as you are getting no joy, you are going to run a public poll, the £40 a month advert box at the bottom of singletrackworld for example. Tell them you are doing this to guage if you are the only person to have this problem or if the problem is more widespread (Like the 07 GT DHi, a £5000 top top top of the range DH rig that had a very very regular habbit of cracking on the rear swing arm weld)
I doubt yours is the only frame to have suffered the problem. As mentioned before, quote the sale of goods act and give them 2 weeks written notice that you want a replacement frame. That is a reasonable amount of time for them to sort the problem.
As soon as a potential “mass leak” of a possible common failure in the frame is a possibility, I think you will find a prompt response.

I can tell you it works because i did it. When i eventualy got back on good terms with the distributor and asked how many frames were returned with this problem “the majority” was the reply!!!!

This obviously means an almost inevitable bad feeling between you and your bike shop/distributor but then with a product as inherently bad as this, backed up by poor customer service, you won’t be going back anyway!!

This is the way i deal with things and have yet to loose, but then I am angry with the world!!

Madison standard turnaround for commencal is 6-8 weeks.Well thats what its been for the last 6 frames I sent back anyhoo.

As above really .. some importers will get a frame to the shop next day and some it can take weeks, the bike shop is on your side as the longer they wait the more pissed off everybody gets. maybe send an email to the importers customer services …………

nicks

If the shop is saying its the importers fault a replacement frame is delayed – thats their problem. Your contract is with the shop and if they cannot replace the frame they have to refund you. The answer is – well I’ll have my money back then. 2 months is far too long to wait. 2 weeks is too long.

this happened to a mate recently … twice with a meta, in the end they swapped it for a remedy….

Any dealings I’ve had that involved Madison have been a nightmare. I’ve gone straight to the manufacturer if the distributor messes about.

blimey Mick is that the FS? that manufacturor aren’t usually that tardy over warranty claims

Been in this situation twice, 1st time the LBS said 6 weeks to sort out as THEY were busy, ended up dealing with the manufacturer and got a new frame and full service within 24 hours. Haven’t used that shop since, but have bought that brand again.

2nd time was helping a mate, he bought a bike (£2.7K) from his LBS, and after many weeks of bickering with them about his cracked frame, I stepped in for him and quoted his rights to the shop and said we’d go legal if necessary, and what do you know, new frame next day.

If they are going to take the money, they need to be prepared to deal with any issue thereafter, when you buy a new bike the warranty forms part of the overall cost.

Pfff

Well thats what its been for the last 6 frames I sent back anyhoo.

You had to send back 6 frames! Jesus!

My dealings with Madison weren’t exactly impressive, but on a much more minor issue – they managed to send me the wrong size replacement helmet twice.

Name and shame at somepoint. 2.5weeks and still waiting isnt right. Customer service should kick in immediately especially as its potentially 3 weekends riding up the swanny soo far. They will know that.

Sounds too long to me – I had a new frame in a week

see http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/its-definately-cracked-

I had to wait about 6 weeks for a new Santa Crus front end (BB shell ripped out).

LBS lent me a Commencal Meta 6 in the meantime and rebuilt my SC when it came in, didnt need to chase as I know my LBS will bend over backwards and take it in the jacksy for regular customers http://www.swinnertoncycles.co.uk/.

However, when my cracked Foes it was a nightmare, LBS/distributor I bought from closed down, new distibutor didnt want to know, took 3 months, had to chase Foes USA and I had to pay import duty and pick it up from the airport, t055er5. Then it cracked again. TWICE. Claimed on House insurance and a £1400 ’boutique’ frame ended up in the metal skip at the dump.

Still on friendly terms with the shop as they are promising resolution within a week. Fingers crossed and no name and shame unless they are telling lies. Mrh86, the frame is still for sale, but had to be built back up for the Rough Ride last weekend due to the issues on this thread!

I had to wait for 4 weeks before I got my Commencal sorted. The LBS said they could do nothing until the distributor had said it was a manufacturing fault.

richp[ips – that is bollox from the shop.

Actually, that doesn’t seem unreasonable to me TJ, apart from of course the 4 week wait, I’d expect them to be able to turn around a bit quicker. For a product that is likely to be damaged in an accident due to the nature of MTB, I wouldn’t call a manufacturer out of order for wanting to check the frame first.

2 months waitng for an answer no way Summer’ll be over and your frame so last year 😈 I’d get onto the shop like every other day bikes are cheap these days think i’d be asking for a refund though as will the replacement stand up to being ridden?

Good Luck

Matt, sounds like the shop are getting the run around too.
When my shesh ’03 enduro cracked i had a replacement frame within a week.

TandemJeremy – Member

richpips – that is bollox from the shop.

It didn’t strike me as that unreasonable. They were merely trying to ascertain that the breakage was due to a manufacturing fault, and not to misuse. I suppose they could have had a faster turnaround though.

richp[ips – that is bollox from the shop.

TJ – the shop have the right to have it inspected

Whether or not 4 weeks would be deemed reasonable is open to interpretation
I suspect any legal advice would think it reasonable

You should not be disadvantaged in any way – waiting weeks disadvantages you. If the item is less than 6 months old it is assumed to have a manufacturing fault . Your contract is with the retailer – its absolutely nothing to do with anyone else. The shop do not have a “right” to have it examined as far as I can see.

The bike shop should refund or replace immediately.

If they see the bike and think it might be abuse not manufacturing fault then its fair enough to get the frame checked. However the presumption is that it is a manufacturing fault so referall to the manufacturer should not be needed except in exceptional cases.

You lot are far too tolerant IMO

2 1/2 weeks now and I haven’t even sent the frame off yet

Resolution with a week? No Distributor would refund an item until they’ve seen it in person no? Thats fair. Call the Distributor and ask to speak to the Brand Manager etc. I think you’ve waited long enough. Don’t understand why its taken soo long to get to ‘some photos’ stage.

If the item is less than 6 months old it is assumed to have a manufacturing fault.

Maybe in law yes but you’d be amazed at the numbe rof people who walk into a bike shop with a bike in 2 pieces and say “I was just riding along when…”
I’ve had to deal with several such individuals quoting Sale of Goods Act, customer is always right blah blah and even to me as a mechanic it was obvious that the bike had been wrapped round a tree at high speed due to rider ineptitude. If there’s any doubt the manufacturers have the right to inspect the frame (with an independant expert if necessary) and pronounce opinion on it. How long it takes depends…
In some instances however, the manufacturer is aware of a problem (lots of frames with breakages in the same place = failure rather than rider cock up for example) and simply take the shops word for it and replace the frame immediately.

crazy-legs – Member

……….obvious that the bike had been wrapped round a tree at high speed due to rider ineptitude. If there’s any doubt the manufacturers have the right to inspect the frame

Fair enough – and much what I said in one post. Very different however from a all mountain frame with a cracked seatstay

hora – Member

No Distributor would refund an item until they’ve seen it in person no? Thats fair.

It is not up to the distributor FFS – its the retailer who refunds the punter.

The sale of goods act is onerous on retailers and they often try to wriggle out of their obligations.

It would be very interesting to test in court but I wonder if the retailer delays refunding or replacing then would they be liable for bike hire until the refund or replacement is done.

If you bought a new car and it broke you would expect a courtesy car until yours was fixed would you not????

TJ, ok. OP. Revisit the shop. Tell them you want a full refund due to the length of ownership/time and time delayed already. Say fellow rider to a rider, how would you feel. Then backdown slightly and say ‘ok, willing to compromise but I want a new frame pronto from your shelf’?

If the item is less than 6 months old it is assumed to have a manufacturing fault.

Being slightly pedantic (but this surely is a thread for pedants to feel at home in?), that’s not quite the case. If an item is less than six months old then it’s isn’t assumed to have a manufacturing fault, but the onus is on the retailer to prove that it didn’t if there is any dispute. Similarly if it’s more than six months old it isn’t assumed not to have a manufacturing fault, but the onus in proving that it did moves to the consumer.

If the retailer thinks it may not be a fault then they are within their rights to investigate to see if they can prove that it wasn’t a fault. And referring to the manufacturer would be a perfectly reasonable step. There’s lots of ways you could accidentally damage a frame that would cause it to fail, so it’s not unreasonable for a retailer to investigate it. These things aren’t cheap and most shops just aren’t able to hand them out willy nilly. Expecting an instant refund probably wouldn’t be considered “reasonable” – which is the legal benchmark on which the whole sale of goods act seem to depend.

Also the right to reject for a refund is quite short lived (a few weeks), although I suspect that with 8 weeks/a handful of rides you may well be able to do that in this case. Any refund might well be reduced depending on how much use you have had of the product before the fault.

Also if you bought it on a credit card then the cc company are liable along with the retailer so that could give you another line of attack if the retailer is unhelpful.

And another also – your rights under the sale of goods act and the contract of your warranty are not the same. Warranty contract are with the manufacturer and not the retailer. (Quick edit: unless the retailer is an agent of the manufacturer of course)

And you’re unlikely to be able to claim for time without use of the goods unless they were purchsed for business purposes. Courtesy cars are usually supplied under the terms of a warranty, they’re not a right under the sale of goods act.

Fair enough Jonathan ( I was writing very briefly)except the bit about the time for a refund – that is not limited in law but depends on a “reasonableness” test

If goods do not conform to contract at the time of sale, purchasers can request their money back “within a reasonable time”. (This is not defined and will depend on circumstances)

this explains all

The courtesy bike thing was a “I wonder” from me. If the bike was your only transport and the shop knew this you might have a case. You might anyway if it counts as “foreseeable losses” or something like that. Going beyond my knowledge here