Hi,

I’m looking to replace my Santa Cruz Chameleon (too small for me) with a ‘do it all’ hardtail, and this time round have a preference for steel. I’m far more orientated to DH/Freeride on my current hardtail than XC – if a ride’s not got drops and roots in it them I’m not interested. But I still need to be able to ride it uphill.

Therefore I’m considering the Cotic Soul mainly – it seems to get excellent reviews. Also a Ragley Piglet, 456 evo and a Transition TransAm.

I would just go and buy the Soul as it gets such good reviews, but I have a concern over the head angle – it seems a bit steep at 70 degrees. Having looked here the Chameleon head angle is 68 degrees – and it feels great on downhills. Having read some other posts it seems that manufacturers seem to measure the head angle in different ways, e.g. with different fork sizes and sag measurements. All of this confuses me, hence hoping that someone can help. Will the Soul (and a few of the others) have good enough geometry to cope with steep downhills?

Thanks

The chameleon angle is based on a 140 fork, without sag (i think), and the soul on 100 sagged so the head angles are pretty much the same, soul perhaps a tad slacker.

Going off the riding you describe the BFE maybe a better fit than the soul.

I have a BFe and a Soul and it definitely sounds like the BFe would be a more obvious choice for the riding you describe.

Thanks for the quick replies,

MSP – That’s reassuring about what you say re the Soul’s head angles. I suppose also, the bigger the fork, the slacker the angle? The SC currently runs a 125mm Marzocchi fork, which I’m also going to change to a 140mm fork, so that would probably help make things slacker wouldn’t it?

The BFe does look great, but it looks tiny in all the pics. Given I’m 6 2 / 6 3 I’d have to run such a massive seatpost I think I’m going to have to rule it out. I do want to ride uphill’s also, whereas the Bfe looks to me more suited to dirt jumping to me.

bfe is the same size and geometry as the soul its an optical isusion due to seatpost diameter which make the bfe look smaller, I am 6’2″ and had a soul, with the amount of seatpost sticking out I would have preferred the larger diameter seatpost of the bfe.

Another thing to consider with the soul (which may or may not be an issue depending on your preference) is that you can’t put the saddle right down. The water bottle bosses prevent it from being lowered that far down (or do on my mates anyway)

bfe is the same size and geometry as the soul its an optical isusion due to seatpost diameter which make the bfe look smaller,

Also people tend to go a size smaller on the BFe (I have a small BFe but a medium Soul) so there is more seatpost showing when it’s set for uphill.

Another thing to consider with the soul (which may or may not be an issue depending on your preference) is that you can’t put the saddle right down. The water bottle bosses prevent it from being lowered that far down (or do on my mates anyway)

Never noticed that, maybe a problem on smaller sizes.

The BFe does sound good, I’ll need to have a go on one to figure out if the small size will be an issue or not. That seems easier said than done, the dealer I called today didn’t have a demo bike.

In the meantime, has anyone had a go on the Transition TransAm? They sound good, but not too much info on the web…

A medium BFe is exactly the same size and geometry as a medium Soul. Same with the small and large, just no extra small Soul.

Literally just made the switch from my Chameleon as I had the same problem as you, it was just that little too small for me.

Don’t regret it at all, the soul seems to climb so well compared to the SC, but then still seems more than able to hit downhills reasonably quickly with a pretty good level of control. I mainly ride XC so it was an obvious choice, but if your after the little more travel I think I would be heading towards the Bfe instead.

A medium BFe is exactly the same size and geometry as a medium Soul. Same with the small and large, just no extra small Soul.

Thanks , I see what you mean now. The pic of the black BFe here looks tiny, but I guess it must be a small or extra small. The pic of the blue one on the same page looks fine.

What’s the difference in use between the Soul and BFe? I was under the impression that the Soul can handle drops/downhills, plus do a bit of XC. I thought that was the whole point of it from the reviews I’ve seen, that it’s a kind of freeride hardtail. So what can the BFe do that the Soul can’t? From what I’ve heard the Soul can do a lot.

The bfe is a “beefy” version of the soul, the soul is more trail/xc oriented, although it can handle a fair bit of abuse, the bfe can handle more. The bfe also has fittings for a chain device.

I have a medium BFe, I’m 5-10. I love it for just the sort of riding you do plus I can happily ride 5-6 hours on it (my legs dictate that, the rides comfortable enough for longer). I have 150/120 adjustable forks which work really well. Since getting the BFe I’ve barely ridden my 160mm Reign. As noted above the Soul/BFe angles are the same, as you can get the BFe seat right down you get a lot of confidence on drops and jumps that you’re not going to get caught up on it, the bike handles really well and it’s cheaper than a Soul. FWIW I considered a Pig/Piglet too but liked the BFe better. If you’re considering a Soul you might want to look at a Dialled Prince Albert also.

Never ridden a BFe, but I am 6’2″ and have a large Soul, no problems whatsoever with the size or lowering seatpost. Lovely bike.

I used to have a Prince Albert which covered everything you have described in your opening post. Used to ride it all day in the hills, Uplift days at inners, Aston Hill, and in the alps – coped with everything really well.

I’ve also just built up a large NS Surge (I am just over 6′), which I am running singlespeed (it has sliding vertical dropouts so can be run either ss or with gears). Easily pedals up hill and with a slack head angle and low bottom bracket, it flicks around downhill trails really nicely – well worth considering. Slightly cheaper than a BFE as well.

I’m just sorting the geom pages with some static angles as well to stop this kind of confusion. The Soul (and BFe, same geom as mentioned above) are 68.8 static with 100mm fork, and it knocks back about 1 deg for every 20mm of travel, so 120mm forks 67.8deg etc.

The BFe is way stronger than the Soul, strong enough for jumping and 4X and that kind of thing. Also strong enough for 160mm forks should you so wish. It’s stiffer along the length of the bike which makes it more confidence inspiring at speed and with said really big forks. Obviously the other big difference is the price.

Cheers,

Cy
http://www.cotic.co.uk

Own a Soul and using that `drag across’ thing on the Cotic site, the Soul was 70 degrees with 100mm if i recall, Cy?

Geek Page

This is based on the static angles.

Thanks for all the help, pretty sure I’ll get a BFe.

The new pages on the cotic site clear things up too, good idea showing the static and sagged angles

jk1980 – Member
Thanks for all the help, pretty sure I’ll get a BFe.

In the new green … stunning colour, great bike

This topic is where I am coming from. I loved my medium Chameleon (6ft2) but I was just too tall for it (back ache) and I need something ‘comfier’.

Soul or Bfe?

Hmmmmm.

Hi

I replaced a Stiffee with a TransAM 18 months ago, I have 150mm Revs on (original 36s) with a short stem it feels fine, not as slack as the Cove but still sorted on the downs and jumps.

I have medium I am just under 6′ stand over height/stretch perfect for me.

Excellent paint finish the decals are peeling a bit and due to misuse on my behalf there is a few chips on the paint work but is looking ok.

It can be a fiddle taking the rear wheel off as the frame is single speed with muti speed push in drop outs & the frame is no light weight.

Its really my only bike now, I did tour of Ben Nevis last year with it and I use it again on Saturdays race, plenty comfy for 72km

I hope this helps…

Well I plumped for the Soul in the end. Its a lovely bike, very well made and its a much better fit for me at 6.2 than the medium chameleon. Hence going uphill now feels much more comfortable.

However, downhill I’m not finding it so good – the angles just dont feel slack enough for me. I feel to pitched over the front. Odd as it seems the HA is not that different according to the above, maybe its another part of the geometry. However, slightly regretting not going for something like a Production Privee Shan.

I have the new soul with the tapered head tube. Does anyone know if I can fit a cane creak angleset? The head angle needs to be more slack

Thanks

You could fit an angleset or similiar, sure… Was always curious how my Soul would work with one.

I’d suggest Works Components btw- much cheaper, simpler design, and made in the UK to boot (if you care about such things). Angleset is clever but has too many moving parts for my taste, whereas the Works one is just a funny shaped headset really.

Are you sure its the head angle?

Form what I remember, Chameleons have very tall head tubes, perhaps your bars are much lower on the cotic, hence you’re getting the “pitched over the front” feeling you are describing?

^^
This. My Soul with a 120 Reba (visible stanchion about 130mm) is as slack as a reasonably slack thing. Parked up next to other bikes it is noticeably slacker than the 140mm Canyon, but not as slack as the mmmmbop with 140 forks. Having ridden a 71/72 degree Cube HT on some pretty lairy stuff, I can vouch that the Soul is absolutely planted in comparison.

I love mine with low rise bars, but perhaps a higher bar/stem combo would make it feel less arse up. I doubt it would help the climbing though…………..

Thanks for all the advice. Glad to hear it can take some sort of angled head set if needs be.

Davidtaylforth – you could well be right there, it may not be the head angle. I’m not going to rush into any sort of rash decision, suppose it makes sense to jack the front up a bit first

What forks do you have on there, how is the sag and damping set, what length stem do you have and how high are your grips above the headset (spacers, stem angle and bar rise)?