Are there any consumer rights experts? I could do with some advice to know if I’m being messed about.

I bought an item recently (an archery bow) from an online retailer. After a couple of weeks, it developed cracks during normal use.

I contacted the retailer (a one-man-band) who was closed as he’d gone on holiday for a month. Being a little concerned that I needed to act within 30 days to get a refund, I sent him an email detailing the dates that the item failed and that I was notifying him within the 30 day time limit for a full refund.

He’s now returned from his holiday, but says he won’t refund me until he’s heard from the manufacturer as it’s an “in warranty claim”.

I’m insisting on an immediate refund on the grounds that I don’t want a warranty repair or replacement, and that it’s irrelevant what the manufacturers say… Am I right?

Sounds like he’s waiting for reassurance from the manufacture that they’ll reimburse him before he agrees to take it back, but as it failed, it’s not fit for purpose, so should I not be entitled to a full refund?

Yes, you’re absolutely correct. You have a 30 day “right to reject” faulty goods, end of.

Your contract of sale is with the retailer, any dealings with the manufacturer are his problem and not your concern. He can make his in-warranty claim if he wants but that’s between him and them.

The phrase I use in these situations is, “just so that we’re clear, can you confirm that you are refusing to honour my statutory rights under the Consumer Rights Act?”

“just so that we’re clear, can you confirm that you are refusing to honour my statutory rights?”

This 100%

He may need to look them up, but he will get the message.

That was my understanding Cougar, thanks for the tip… I’ll give it one last go!

This was what he replied earlier today”

The goods were in perfect condition when dispatched and arrived with you in the same condition. Any subsequent failure is an in guarantee claim. At no point have I stated that you would not get a refund or that I would insist on sending you a replacement. However I want the manufacturer to confirm this is a product failure of if they want to inspect it.

Obviously it’s a failure, and it’s obvious that it happened during normal use – there’s no way the manufacturer could deduce anything other than that from a photo!

The goods were in perfect condition when dispatched and arrived with you in the same condition.

Ask him what his proof of this is.

You may need to explain to him what his legal responsibilities as a retailer are.

He is trying to avoid them.

Any subsequent failure is an in guarantee claim.

This isn’t true. Under the Consumer Rights act you have the right to reject the goods (if of unsatisfactory quality / not as described / not fit for purpose) in the first 30 days, as I said earlier.

Outside of 30 days and in the first six months, yes, it’s a warranty claim (which is his problem to sort out) but it is assumed that the fault was inherent at the time of purchase unless the retailer can prove otherwise. It sounds like this is what he’s doing – I want the manufacturer to confirm this is a product failure of if they want to inspect it – he’s trying to find out whether you’ve broken it.

It’s an irrelevance, a bow snapping in a couple of weeks is neither of satisfactory quality nor fit for purpose. Nip this guarantee thing in the bud and tell him you are rejecting the goods.

At no point have I stated that you would not get a refund or that I would insist on sending you a replacement.

Good. So what’s he waiting for then? What he wants has no bearing on the law and your right to reject.

I’m insisting on an immediate refund on the grounds that I don’t want a warranty repair or replacement, and that it’s irrelevant what the manufacturers say… Am I right?

Yes, under UK law and assuming they are based in the UK.

You have a contract with them that is controlled by distance selling regs (The Consumer Contracts (formerly Distance Selling) regulations)

you have 2 weeks to return the goods which you can obviously only do if they respond / tell you where/how so being away for 1 month is not your problem

You have a contract with them that is controlled by distance selling regs (The Consumer Contracts (formerly Distance Selling) regulations)

you have 2 weeks to return the goods

You’re right, but that doesn’t apply here I don’t think.

For online buying you have two weeks from date of receipt to reject the goods for any reason under CCR; essentially a “I’ve changed my mind” clause to allow you to inspect goods that you’ve bought unseen.

However, the CCR is in addition to your rights under the CRA, it doesn’t replace it. For faulty goods, the CRA still applies and gives you 30 days to reject.

Under the CCR, a refund for returned goods should be issued within 14 days. I’m not aware off the top of my head whether there’s a time limit on goods returned under the CRA but I’d expect a similar time frame to be reasonable.

assuming they are based in the UK.

I think they have to adhere to UK trading laws in order to trade in the UK so this shouldn’t matter. (Don’t take this as gospel though, I’m hazy on International legalese.)

I think they have to adhere to UK trading laws in order to trade in the UK so this shouldn’t matter. (Don’t take this as gospel though, I’m hazy on International legalese.)

Well yep but what do they care …(if they are for example in China)

For online buying you have two weeks from date of receipt to reject the goods for any reason under CCR; essentially a “I’ve changed my mind” clause to allow you to inspect goods that you’ve bought unseen.

I think for the faulty they have a “reasonable amount of time” (however that’s defined) but due to personal recent experience I’d try the “rejected for any reason first” … (if possible) or you then get into them receiving the good back then sending to manufacturer/supplier etc.

I got a damaged product before XMAS (arrived damaged) and as soon as I was trying to return it “damaged” I got a whole load of exceptions…

I then just returned it because (not as described) and it still took them EXACTLY 30 days to refund…

what do they care …(if they are for example in China)

There is that.

I think for the faulty they have a “reasonable amount of time” (however that’s defined)

Entirely possible. I’d have to look it up.

I’d try the “rejected for any reason first” ..

Agreed, but it depends how much time had elapsed between receipt and notification. He said “a couple of weeks” so I assume he’s outside of 14 days.

you then get into them receiving the good back then sending to manufacturer/supplier etc.

No, you don’t. After 30 days you have to give them a chance to make good, but not in the first 30 days.

The seller is Red Frog Archery, based in Irvine, Scotland…

He’s just replied with this:

OK since you are in a hurry to send it back you can do so, It will be sent to the manufacturer for inspection and depending on the outcome of their investigation will depend as to whether a refund is forthcoming, ie if they determine that the product has been misused while in your position then a refund would not be issued as the product will have been not used as per the manufacturers specification. I will of course ask them to provide proof of this and that information would be passed to you.

Trading Standards?

did you pay by credit card?

Trading Standards?

I would.

I would tell him that was my next move, and explain why. And if he didn’t meet his responsibilities, then I would be straight onto them.

did you pay by credit card?

Yes…

I’m really looking forward to leaving a review!

charge back/let the CC firm sort out the grief?

How do I do that??

Even if you had misused it, I’m not sure how they would unequivocally prove that. And as I’ve said, for the first six months the fault is automatically presumed to be inherent unless they could prove otherwise.

Playing devil’s advocate, I can see where he’s coming from. For all he knows, you bought it and badly overstrung it (you didn’t do that, did you?) If he sends it back and they go “there’s nowt wrong with that, guv” he’s a sole retailer and several hundred quid out of pocket.

The original point still stands though. A bow breaks in a fortnight of normal use, it’s not fit for purpose / of unsatisfactory quality.

did you pay by credit card?

Section 75, then.

How do I do that??

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/section-75-of-the-consumer-credit-act

He supplied the string as well… It would be almost impossible to draw a bow further than your actual draw length, and the cracks are clearly consistent with a laminate stress-fracturing.

I’ve emailed North Ayrshire Trading Standards, so I’ll see if that gets a response…

(thanks for the link, I’ll follow that up if I get no more joy from the seller)

Update: For some reason I paid by Paypal, so not sure if the dispute process is as straight forward. I’ve tried to open a dispute, but the only options are if goods didn’t arrive, or if they were damaged or not as described.

Has anyone any advice for going down this route?

Thanks!

Have you considered that the seller may not have the expertise to determine whether the item failed or was damaged by you?

Do you have any reason to think the seller is going to refuse you a refund once this is established?

Do you have any reason to think the seller is going to refuse you a refund once this is established?

None whatsoever, apart from the fact that they are stress cracks caused by flexing the bow, there’s not really anything else that can be deduced from the manufacturer inspecting it.

My concern is that an unscrupulous seller is trying to avoid giving me a refund and fobbing me off. If he gets back to me and says “the manufacturers say it was misused”, where do I stand then?

I’m out of pocket, without the goods and have to take the word of a seller who disregards the law!

My concern is that an unscrupulous seller is trying to avoid giving me a refund and fobbing me off. If he gets back to me and says “the manufacturers say it was misused”, where do I stand then?

I’m out of pocket, without the goods and have to take the word of a seller who disregards the law!

You want your money back before returning the item which you claim is faulty?

No, I want to send the bow back and get a full refund. Simple as that.
I don’t want to wait while he sends it back to Italy and then refuse to give me a refund if the manufacturers refuse to accept that it’s a manufacturing defect.

So it’s a bit of a catch 22 situation then, eh?

In my opinion the retailer is being reasonable. They are allowed to inspect the item to see if it failed under normal use or if it was abused. If the retailer does not have the knowledge to do that they can send to the manufacturer or an independent body to inspect. But the retailer has to act within a reasonable time and cannot keep you waiting for months.

If after inspection the retailer refuses to refund you; then because the item is less than 6 months old, the retailer has to prove the item was abused or used in an incorrect manner.

If they cannot prove the item was misused or you do not accept their findings and they do not give you a refund, you can then escalate it further through trading standards or if there is a retail ombudsman.

But before you reach that stage you have to give the retailer a fair chance to rectify the situation. Yes it sucks that you’ll be out of pocket while they inspect the item but unfortunately that’s what happens. Even very well made items will have some failure rates.

… yes, if it’s outside of 30 days, which it is not.

You are not returning faulty goods, you are rejecting the sale due the goods being of unsatisfactory quality.

I mean, this situation is exactly the kind of thing the Sales of Goods Act is designed to stop.

Just had a very interesting conversation with Citizens Advice Consumer Services – they’re VERY helpful!

She just dismissed everything he’s saying. Manufacturers Warranty is in addition to my statutory rights, and to use them to restrict my stat rights is a criminal offense.

He also failed to supply be with cancellation details at the point of sale – another criminal offense! She’s preparing a file to Trading Standards.

She also informed me that I’m entitled to claim the original standard delivery, return shipping costs and consequential losses ie, the string and arrow rest which were bought specifically for this item.

Basically, I should be left in exactly the same position, financially, as before I bought faulty goods.

They’ve also, with my permission, agreed to discuss the case with him and advise him of his obligations, so I’ve emailed him details.

I await with bated breath!

Maybe shut up on here for a while?
lets us know when its sorted. Juuuuuuuust in case it causes agro?

So it’s a bit of a catch 22 situation then, eh?

Not really no.

The law is pretty clear on what the retailer HAS to do in this situation.

Maybe shut up on here for a while?
lets us know when its sorted. Juuuuuuuust in case it causes agro?

Apologies for the long delay, but here’s an update for anyone who’s interested… I’m sure you’ve all been waiting with bated breath!

Following the advice of Citizens Advice Consumer Services, I sent a 7-day letter requesting a full refund and consequential losses but he refused to sign for it and it was returned to me!

I was subsequently contacted by him with an email written with the assistance of his local Trading Standards, but still tried to insist that if the manufacturers deemed it to have been misused, he wouldn’t be giving me a refund.

I’m not sure of the legality of that, but I’d already emailed the manufacturer who accepted that it was a manufacturing fault and they were happy to accept it back, so that kind of blew it out of the water.

My advice to anyone would be to familiarise yourself with the Consumer Rights Act, and the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations. And if anyone ever tries to fob you off, get in touch with Citizens Advice Consumer Service (not Trading Standards in the first instance) and they will prepare the file for TS. They’re very helpful and seem eager to stamp out any illegal behaviour by sellers.

So do you have your refund, or are you still waiting….?

That’s a terrible attitude for a retailer to have – and being a one-man business is no excuse. As a retailer doing mail order, you just have to accept that a percentage of sales will come back, and you factor that in to your business. I once had someone reject a £5000 electric recumbent trike because she didn’t like the attitude of the delivery driver. Seriously.

(Got my revenge, though – when she wanted to sell a couple of other recumbents, no-one else wanted them so I gave her a silly low price then made a very healthy profit on them 😀 )

So do you have your refund, or are you still waiting….?

Finally got a full refund, his attitude was utterly laughable though. Trading Standards ordered him to refund “consequential losses” which included return shipping, the bow string and the arrow rest…

The arrow rest came in a pack of 2 and cost around 4 quid. He argued that he shouldn’t have to refund me for both of them and would only give me 2 pounds!! I think at this point, TS had just about had enough of him!

His quibbling and haggling to make me use the cheapest possible courier for the return shipping was hilarious!

I suspect the guy is in severe financial difficulties which is why he was so terrified to give me a refund in the first place. I’m just glad I got my money back before he goes to the wall!

I posted my thoughts on the UK’s biggest archery forum, which has in turn caused posters to refer to the incident on his Facebook page. That, along with the poor reviews he’s received on Facebook, Google and Yell should ensure he behaves better in future… Or goes bust.

Sorry to hear about your issues and glad you’ve got it sorted finally.

I work for an archery shop and most of the customer service in the sector is lacking it’s an area our shop spend a lot of time and money on, and it’s paid for itself in terms of growth although we still get it wrong occasionally.

The retailer you used last time I checked keep prices very low in order to make more profit by selling more volume we used to try and compete with them on price in some online avenues but the prices are so low it’s not worth the hassle, as if you make a low margin and get an issue with a product you can lose a fair few quid unless you blame the customer of course.

Out of interest what product was it?

Out of interest what product was it?

It was a Ragim Black Bear… To be honest, it was a lovely bow for the money – had the laminate not cracked – and Ragim were nothing but helpful, I’d have no qualms about using their products again or recommending them. It was a budget bow, and had it not failed, I’m sure I’d have been happy using it for a couple of years.

I’ve replaced it with a Bearpaw Hopi which is absolutely lovely. Quite a bit more, although still at the lower end of the price spectrum, but the quality is superb and it shoots beautifully.

I also had issues with the retailer when buying this bow though which meant I had to wait a long time for it to arrive – the kept telling me that Bearpaw hadn’t sent the delivery out due to high demand, but when I got in touch with Bearpaw, they told me they hadn’t received the order! The retailer was obviously waiting until they had a few orders before buying them in!

Very frustrating, and I won’t use that retailer again either, but I guess it’s part-and-parcel of buying for a niche sport – retailers just aren’t shifting enough volume to be able to provide the service we consumers expect.

A bit of honesty goes a long way though – if you’re not going to be ordering an item in for weeks, make that clear to the customer so they have the option to source elsewhere. If I’d ordered direct from Bearpaw, I’d have had it within a week!

Where do you work?