I've got cup and cone on 3 bikes (2 mountain and 1 road) and I have used Hope XC cartridge before. Generally I'd say cartridge is better just because the risk of stuff getting into cup and cone and destroying the cups. Serving c&c is easy but it's one of those jobs that's easily forgotton about / avoided and by the time you notice they are rough it's to late.
The drag argument against cartridge when off road is not really relevent compared to rolling resistance etc. On road I thought c&c were idea as sealing isn't and issue and that appears to be the case but having said that I have a pair of Pro-Lite Bracciano wheels whos cartridge bearing wheels spin for minutes.
However the biggest thing against c&c is not realy c%c but Shimano as their mtb freehubs are awful, I barely get a year of my little used XT one and as they are not serviceable it's a £30-£40 expense everytime as upposed to a few pounds for pawls and springs.
Bike Forum
cartridge bearings better than well maintained ball bearings?
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Posted 3 months ago #
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Unless you believe your as good as SKF FAG/INA with tolerances and build quality of bearings, then go with cartridge bearings.
Oh - I hadn't realised SKF will send somebody out to reset the tolerances of my cartridges when they start to wear - where do I apply for that? Actually, how do you adjust cartridge bearings when their fine tolerances disappear after a very short period of use on a MTB?
Posted 3 months ago # -
I regreased my 12 year old Shimano 105 front hub the other week. I do it every couple of years or so. SMOOTH. Dunno how many miles it's done, certainly more than 12,000.
Posted 3 months ago # -
aracer - IME cartidge bearing stay within tolerances IE no play for ages then fail quickly whereas cap and cone once they start to wear and develop play will never be right again no matter how carefully you adjust them.
Basically once any bearing wears enough to develop play its scrap unless yo are prepared to put up with less than optimal bearings
None of my cartridge bearing hubs are either rough or have freeplay detectable at the rim. NOne have had the bearings changed for a long time. two cup and cone bearings are rough and will not adjust to give no play and no roughness
Posted 3 months ago # -
Here's my take on this, based on ~7000 hours' work as a mechanic in 3 lbs.
The OP asked: cartridge bearings better than well maintained ball bearings
No contest - well maintained shimano hubs should last forever bar the replacement of freehub bodies. An lx hub for £30 is only 50gm heavier than a pro but 1/4 the price. £3 for a cone or bearings, and £30 for an entire replacement hub including cup and freehub body (only the latter will need replacing if you properly maintain the hub). Compared with say £30 for the bearings in a pro 2, which can't be maintained?
Of course many have answered the un-asked question cartridge bearings better than un-maintained ball bearings? and I now take some of their points in turn (TJ: PLEASE do not take this personally):
TandemJeremy - Member
Not user error. I set the bearings up correctly. They will either take in muck and go gritty and tight / take in water and corrode and go notchy or wear to go loose over a period of time.
I can also change a set of cartridge bearings quicker should I need to.
1. Sorry, you're not maintaining them frequently enough.
2. An experienced mech might change cartridge bearings more quickly than cup and con by a few minutes yes, but most maintenance for the latter IME is a quick squirt of grease.igm - Member
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't cup and cone bearings eventually wear the surfaces the balls run on leading to hub replacement, whereas with a cartridge the same (equivalent) surface is part of the replaceable cartridge.Yes - but the cups are replaceable with a little know how (sadly more than many lbs have, but identical procedure to replacing cartridge bearings, albeit you need a new cup from a new hub)
kaesae - Member
You will be able to get cup and cone hubs to function, but getting them to the same degree of performance as a good set of hubs running top end cartridge bearings would be quite hard if not impossibleSo C+C will only "function"? What is this "performance" you are talking about? All I can think it could b is bearing friction - which is in either case is tiny compared to all the other losses on an mtb. Turn a cartridge bearing hub in your hand...my experience is there's more drag than a C+C hub.
TandemJeremy - Member
aracer - IME cartidge bearing stay within tolerances IE no play for ages then fail quickly whereas cap and cone once they start to wear and develop play will never be right again no matter how carefully you adjust them.Basically once any bearing wears enough to develop play its scrap unless yo are prepared to put up with less than optimal bearings
None of my cartridge bearing hubs are either rough or have freeplay detectable at the rim. NOne have had the bearings changed for a long time. two cup and cone bearings are rough and will not adjust to give no play and no roughness
I've got 8 bikes and only 1 is on cartridge bearing hubs (road bike, to get light hubs), 2 of those hubs are 22 years old and all are in fine condition. I've trashed some in the past - usually an immersion followed by no maintenance. Mostly they get a check and a squirt of grease or a clean-out every wee while. This accords with my lbs experience. So if your C+C hubs are ****ed then AFAIAC it's down to your own lack of maintenance - you have to accept this varies with riders/use. I've also run rough C+C hubs smooth - it worked fine.
/THREAD CLOSED/
Posted 3 months ago # -
Cynic al - once a cup an cone wears it can never be 100% no matter how you adjust it, Wear is wear. These bearings have hardened surfaces
Anyone who claims as you did that a rough and pitted bearing will wear smooth shows your lack of mechanical sympathy.
Posted 3 months ago # -
TandemJeremy - Member
Cynic al - once a cup an cone wears it can never be 100% no matter how you adjust it, Wear is wear. These bearings have hardened surfacesAnyone who claims as you did that a rough and pitted bearing will wear smooth shows your lack of mechanical sympathy.
I don't see how wear itself (rather than corrosion and pitting) has any effect - you adjust to compensate. However you barely see any significant wear - it's 99% corrosion and pitting....which I HAVE SEEN WITH MY OWN EYES wear smooth again.
Shame you have to make this personal and say I have "no mechanical sympathy" (whatever that means - and I did ask you not to get personal). For me the hub has to rotate in a reliable and low friction manner. I don't need the innards to stand up to microscopic inspection or have hermetically sealed hygiene - what on earth is the point in spending money on that? Just so you can say you have "mechanical sympathy"? Your "mechanically sympathetic" hubs are doing their job no better, you've just spent more money on them.
Posted 3 months ago # -
I guess I am the only one old enough to remember servicing cup and cone BBS with screw in cups and a lockring.
My Dawes Super Galaxy tandem has two such BBs. I serviced them at about 20 years. And needn't have bothered. They are soooo smooth, far better than the indestructible UN71s.
I also much prefer servicing cup and cone hubs. All you need is a decent set of cone spanners and a little mechanical sympathy.
Posted 3 months ago # -
My experience of any kind of ball-bearing bearing wear is that it isnt even, you get that rollercoaster effect. Why is that?
Posted 3 months ago # -
djaustin - no way on mtbs, they require too much servicing.
sugdenr I don't know what you mean...unless it's the cone wear you are talking about?
Posted 3 months ago # -
I guess I am the only one old enough to remember servicing cup and cone BBS with screw in cups and a lockring.
I had a similar bb on my first Rockhopper. I managed to strip the thread on my crank so I couldn't get at it to service it and I kept in running for a very long time by pouring oil down the seat tube.
Posted 3 months ago # -
A wheel built on an XTR hub will spin fantastically for a long time.
A wheel built on a DT240 will spin pretty well for a while
A wheel built on a Pro 2 will do a few revolutions and stopWhat is the criteria for 'better'?
They roll better and smoother. They are heavier and there is potential to do more catastrophic damage. Yes you can replace cups from a donor hub, but if you do that on an XTR hub (or need to do it on some Dura Ace wheels as a friend did) then that's a lot more expensive than some cartridge bearings.
Cartridge bearing are idiot proof, generally less maintanence, lighter, but don't roll as well.
On balance I'd choose cartridge bearing, but wouldn't shy away from decent cup and cone at all.
Posted 3 months ago # -
I have spent most of this week seriving peoples rough and losse hubs. New balls of grade 25 or better, good quality grease such as rock n rolls super web or similiar and they run smooth again. Some customers just do not reliase how bad they have become. However any pitting on the cones means they must be replaced. Any pitting on the hub means a new hub but hubs only pit/brinel if poor quality bearing are used or they are left to run dry and riden. Weldite bearings for example are grade 1000 I believe, utterly pointless in an engineering application.
I have cartidge bearings in my hope hubs and loose ball in my shimano hubs. Boths run smoothly. When I service even cheap hubs they all run smooth by the time I am finished with them, the more expensives one can be made super smooth. I like them.
Posted 3 months ago # -
Any pitting on the hub means a new hub
Not necessarily true - you can knock the cone out of a donor hub and press it into an old one. Shimano say you can't, but you can. Dunno about other brands of hub.
Posted 3 months ago # -
I think njee20 as summed my feeling up on this debate. Cup and cone bearings roll a lot better on the bike, I have had 20 or more sets of wheels mainly with Hope hubs. XC, Bulb the newer Pro2 and DT swiss hubs too. Some cheaper brands DMR revolvers, On One----
I have also had maybe the same amount of wheels with cup and cones over the years.
Wheels with cup and cones spin better just try it on the bike. When they are set up correctly with the cones adjusted to perfection and not too much grease in them, they will spin forever a day. This as got to equate to less drag than cartridge bearings! All my cartridge bearing wheels have never spun as free as the cup and cone ones, by quite some way in the case of some of the hubs. Hope hubs seem to have more drag than any other I have used especially the older XC models.
You can't get away from the fact Shimano wheels have terrible freehub bodys, which should be taken into account with this argument! They don't last a year with me riding them in mud 17 stone rider. They are expensive and Shimano are always making subtle changes and you will not be able to get them after a few years due to this. You cant service them too unlike Hope or other cartridge bearing hubs.
Shimano Hubs are heavier in the mid range Deore, SLX and XT. The newer lighter XT M775 hubs are lighter than there predecessors but are really fiddly to set up and freehubs on those are even worse than any other Shimano hub ever made!
Hope freehubs last for ages and can be made to run like new with a set of springs and pawls and two cartridge bearings. I know people running them for 12 years and they can still get spares easy enough and cheaply. Try that with Shimano, axles, freehubs cones etc
So there is a bigger picture to look at than is cup and cone better than cartridge bearings.
Basically they are better, but not being able to change the races without buying new hubs to knock them out, crap freehubs and heavy weight, sealing not as good for heavy muddy riding and lack of longevity for spares. That will always make me buy a more draggy Hope hub over the Shimano!
Posted 3 months ago # -
I'm not really adding anything to this discussion but I knackered the cup and cone bearings in my rear Formula hub through lack of maintenance and probably though over enthusiastic cleaning even though a pressure washer wasn't used. I know this was my fault, even though the hubs were low quality, but when I replaced it I decided to get a cartridge bearing hub so that it wouldn't be difficult to replace them in case I was stupid enough not to look after C&C bearings again.
I know C&C are better if they are good quality and welmaintaineded but I personally prefer cartridge bearings so they can be easily replaced if/when I don't look after them.
Posted 3 months ago # -
Doesn't the argument that all bearings are created equally have something to do with it
And a lot of the time things for bikes are designed to fit not designed to suit the loadings
Cup and cone allows the same conditions to roughly be catered for as angular contact bearings a cartridge has a set clearance shit bearings and shit fits and shit sizing equals shit bearing lifePosted 3 months ago #
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