this is so tiresome, it’s all stuff that’s been done to death on here.

Really? A man has been about to eat a fully synthetic lab grown hamburger, for the first time, many times before? As that is what prompted the thread.

Sorry, I thought this was a new thing.

Mods. Nuke from orbit till medium/rare.

Serious question for the vegans: what is the issue with the dairy industry?

You have to have a calf to have milk. So what do you do with the calf? I would have thought though that it would be possible to let the calf drink milk until its weaned and then simply keep milking the mother…

Hopefully people that have read this thread are viewing the dairy industry in a different light now, or maybe just willing me to stfu!

Both? 😀 Its interesting this. I wasn’t aware of issues with dairy farming at all. I didn’t know about the calves being removed. My assumption would have been the same as Molly’s really

If you use dairy, you should really make sure you’re also eating veal. (Proper, British rose veal, of course).

You have to have a calf to have milk. So what do you do with the calf? I would have thought though that it would be possible to let the calf drink milk until its weaned and then simply keep milking the mother…

not if you want an industry selling millions of litres at supermarkets for 50p a litre

I think a lot of people are willfully ignorant of how food is mass produced, look at Bernard Matthews: to us a rosy cheeked norfolk farmer who brought turkey into the mainstream, to Turkeys hes the freaking Antichrist

I’m liking your logic their flashy!

Does one have ones own herd? 😉

I refer you to one of the greatest films of all time, (starring dolf lundgren)

Man-At-Arms: Mmm… good food.
Teela: I wonder why they put the meat on these little white sticks?
Man-At-Arms: Those are rib bones.
Teela : [pauses in shock] You mean this used to be an animal?
Man-At Arms: [continues eating] Mm-hmm.
Teela: Ugh! What a barbaric world…
Man-At-Arms: Never think while you’re hungry.
Teela: I think we’ve wasted enough time. We’d better get back to our sectors.
Gwildor: It tasted good…

As a question, it’s flawed.

“Can” veggies eat it? Of course they can. Would they, is another matter. I know that sounds a little pedantic, but it’s a fairly important distinction if you genuinely want to understand; people don’t not eat meat because they’re vegetarian, they’re vegetarian because they don’t eat meat.

So what? Well, what this means is that there isn’t a vegetarian rulebook / bible which all the vegetarians follow. People are vegetarian for different reasons, and some are stricter than others. Some people call themselves vegetarian but just avoid red meat (which is really irritating as it confuses non-veggies who then offer tuna pasta bakes as the vegetarian ‘option’ in restaurants); some people wouldn’t eat barbecued food if it’s been turned with the same tongs as the meat; some fall somewhere in between.

So can veggies eat artificially grown meat? Yes. Would they? It depends entirely on why they’re vegetarian. If I were veggie purely for ethical reasons then I probably would, but I’m not; I find the idea of chowing down into dead flesh revolting and being artificial wouldn’t change that, so personally I wouldn’t eat it. I just don’t see meat as food; for me the question may as well ask whether you’d eat dog poo if we could find a way of making it without requiring a dog.

“Can” veggies eat it? Of course they can.

Can a question be flawed, if it can be answered, Cougar?

assuming that this type of meat became the norm would cougars be the last generation of veggies?

Jamie – Member
A man has been about to eat a fully synthetic lab grown hamburger, for the first time, many times before? As that is what prompted the thread.

Sorry, I thought this was a new thing.

Mods. Nuke from orbit till medium/rare

whilst we’ve arrived at the point where it’s actually going to take place, the notion of growing “meat” in a lab has been around for a while and yes it has actually been raised as an ethical discussion on here, specifically aimed at the vegetarians/vegans on stw. and it, as was usually the case, descended into a sarcastic trolling match.

What’s the ethical position on burgers made from human stem cells?

So the real achievement is making a meat substitute that relies on the same tricks as existing meat substitutes to make it taste like meat, despite being closer to real meat than Quorn…

What’s the real difference then between culturing Mycoprotein and Bovine muscle tissue if you’re still going to have to flavor and colour it either way…

I simply don’t see the point, How can this be more environmentally and ecconomically viable than actual farming or existing meat substitutes?The point is, this is just one stage of the research/experimentation. If the research continues then the process will be improved upon. You might as well ask what was the point of solid bicycle tyres, as they were rubbish. Well yes they were, but they were a necessary step along the way.

If you read the article that was linked in the OP, you will read that the goal is to produce meat by also culturing fat, blood, etc, and by using artificial blood vessels to supply oxygen and nutrients so that the grown meat more closely mimics the real thing. Quite interesting really. It will be more energy efficient than farming because you are only concentrating on growing the meat, you haven’t got the energy expenditure of a cow doing cow stuff.

I could open a chain of restaurants selling burgers made from my stem cells. I think I’ll call it My Alternative Cells (Donalds).

Should be no problem.

Or can you get ethically sourced dairy products, that don’t involve this type of process?

No they artificially inseminate cows then take the calf away as they dont produce milk for no reason – its to feed their young
Females cows may become diary males ones are almost always killed at birth.
IMHO it is little different form the meat industry tbh in terms of treatment
Theoretically goats continue to lactate after the young have been weaned so this may be ethically fine for some but they can explain that decision if there are any on here – I dont consume any milk – except the milk of human kindness and my cup over floweth on these threads – bless you all

descended into a sarcastic trolling match.

warms up typing hands and cut and paste skills

the fact that we are all here today in this part of the world is because your ancestors accrued a survival advantage from a single base pair mutation in your DNA (even the vegans)* allowing you to do so

WOW how did we survive up to that point then Sherlock 😉
Remind us what percentage of the population cannot do this still- wow they survived to…strokes chin wonders what it can all mean
Remind us what percentage of the population – Asian for example – have no history of consuming milk products etc and how your argument applies to them who ?

Dont really reply just saying it is not as simplistic as you say – though your argument is not without merit either obviously

people don’t not eat mean because they’re vegetarian,

Mean I am positively cruel 😉

What cougar says I could eat whatever i like but the question is will I? Not sure how tasty is it 😉

In reality not given it any real thought and not going to start now either

WOW how did we survive up to that point then Sherlock
Remind us what percentage of the population cannot do this still- wow they survived to…strokes chin wonders what it can all mean
Remind us what percentage of the population – Asian for example – have no history of consuming milk products etc and how your argument applies to them?

I said survival advantage – 19% according to that article, which is huge for a single mutation:

Once the LP allele appeared, it offered a major selective advantage. In a 2004 study5, researchers estimated that people with the mutation would have produced up to 19% more fertile offspring than those who lacked it.

I really think you should read the article as you seem to be missing the (several) point(s) JY!

the fact is the the gene swept through europe to the extent that brits of european origin are 99% likely to have it

7500 years ago they didnt, it doesnt take sherlock to realise that the gene was obviously very useful in this part of the world, so much so that those without it were replaced by your ancestors*

* based on the assumption that most of the people on stw are white brits of european origin

I’ll buy the reduced claim on land mass point, but fewer emissions and reduced environmental impact?

It’s a Lab process which will be productionized and turned into a Factory process (apparently), that means significant power consumption (which still means emissions) and what about the process itself? any Waste streams? Such things are normally an inevitably part of any industrial process…

What are the real terms byproducts Per/Kg of Industrially cultured “Beef” Vs “Conventionally Farmed” Moo Cow steaks?

And then there’s the multiple uses of cows, Beef, Milk, Leather, tipping…
So far they are only talking about replicating a single Output from farming this particular animal…
Do we come up with additional industrial processes in order to completely supersede the need for breeding and keeping livestock (each process with its own environmental impact), or do we still farm them for Dairy and/or Leather, but only culture beef? Thus we have the Environmental impact and waste of Farming coupled with that of a new industrial process…

That’s just Cattle, what about Piggies, Sheeps or Chickenses?

I think the Net Environmental gain would actually equate to about Nil once all is said and done…

And it would take a very significant cultural shift to either significantly reduce Human consumption of dead animal products or get them to accept industrially cultured substitutes.

We’re tool makes and by our very nature we will always try to improve on any task or process to make it more efficient and improve yield/volume/availability.
Just look at where this has taken us in terms of personal transport, from foot to horseback, to Steam powered Rail and pedal power, to internal combustion with all the environmental issues that accompany such “progress” and the evolved solution with all it’s nasty byproducts becomes an entrenched part of our society that people just won’t give up or reduce their use of without a fight….

Nah, Factory grown meat? Not a chance – Veggie or not…

If your motivation in choosing your diet was animal welfare then you’d eat certain meats before you’d consider many dairy products.

Nah, Factory grown meat? Not a chance – Veggie or not..

isnt battery farming esentially factory grown meat? (just with added cruelty and suffering)

Mean I am positively cruel

Bah. Typo corrected. #abuseofpower

after the food scandals of recent years, would anybody really be that surprised if cheap meat products were found to contain bits of human.

Yes. I would

cookeaa

Dr Post said that his cultured beef was still undergoing a lifecycle analysis to work out its overall environmental impacts, but early indications were that his lab meat reduced the need for land and water by 90% and overall energy use was cut by 70%.

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/aug/05/first-hamburger-lab-grown-meat-press-conference

Of course, the real story will be the resulting zombie hordes. I always thought it would come from some weird meat-based product, just assumed it would be McD’s or some other reconstituteeesh…

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkbLVamdUEY[/video]

looks like the really cheap birdseye griddle ‘steaks’ i used to eat whilst at uni; they left a luminous yellow fatty deposit in the grill