As a teenager I was a regular paddler, getting out 5 or 6 times a week, and took part in a few marathons and slaloms. In the summers I lived in my boat, and I became an OK paddler.

This was all river paddling, and my teens were 30+ years ago. Life got in the way a bit in my 20s so I padded much less, but in my mid 30s I moved to the coast, so I got the boats out again. The combination of being very rusty, being in a totally unsuitable boat (either my slalom boat or my polo boat, both bought secondhand 20 years earlier), and not not being able to read the water at all, left me feeling uncomfortable and totally out of my depth. No fun was had. The boats were stored again, only to be brought out on the odd dead calm day when I had visitors who fancied a go.

I’d love to give it another go, but I want to give myself a decent chance by at least being in a suitable boat. I’m not going to be doing multi-day expeditions but would quite like something I can paddle for a few hours and cover a decent distance. I’d also want to be able to explore around the rocks and nip in and out of gaps and caves (something my slalom boat was really good for), and not be paranoid about playing in (small) surf.

So, moon-on-a-stick time. I’m after:
– good stability to give confidence to a novice sea paddler, and to learn about ‘edging’
– decent tracking (although anything will be better than what I’ve got)
– agility and ability to turn in a tight spot
– something I won’t grow out of as I improve

On list to try and get a go in are the Rockpool Alaw Bach, P and H Aries, P and H Delphin and Dagger Stratos

Anything else I should be considering? Thanks

a sea kayaking course where you can try out a load of boats? 😉

a sea kayaking course where you can try out a load of boats?

+1 … not so much re boats, but more learning techniques and how to read the water, undesratnd tides and currents etc.

I would add a palstic P&H Scorpion to the list. I bought my missus one as her first sea boat and has loads of fun in it. Unless you’re going to get into the sport really seriously I wouldn’t consider a composite boat. I’ve still got a P&H Capella which I love, but don’t have as much fun in it rock hopping and suffering as my wife does in her plastic boat … too worried about damaging it.

Tracking, stability and agility is a always going to be a bit of a compromise. I could bore for England, but any specific Q’s I’d be happy to try to answer.

Go for a boat with a skeg, but avoid rudders!

I’m not a fan of the dagger sea boats myself. Key bit here is your budget, there’s a fairly huge difference between some of those.

The Aries and Delphin are the same but they were able to make proper for the Aries using composites. I really rate the design despite it having looks even it’s mother struggles to love. You could easily short journey in one.

The alaw/alaw bach is an awesome boat (I paddle an alaw) but it’s design requires you to be confident to unlock it’s agility, you need to edge it hard to free the keel at which point it spins. This makes it very versatile. I’d happily do weeks at a time out of mine if needed.

Aled went to tiderace and developed the alaw design to come up with the xcite which I think is slightly better, it doesn’t bog under hard paddling like the alaw which means you can get a bit more speed out of it.

The NDK Romany is the classic of this type of boat, if you go and see Nige he often sells off school boats at really good prices. Mrs hoppy paddles one of these (as do a number of my friends), it loses speed to the alaw but not a lot and is slightly less spacious but it depends what you want. There is also a plastic version if you want cheaper.

Valley do the Gemini which I’ve not had any experience in. Personally I don’t like the valley boats that much but it’s irrational. Point 65 do the whisky 16, it’s a nice boat but you need to check the ergonomics, I struggled badly with it even just in the shop. The North shore Atlantic is not bad too, I’d say it’s less manoeuvrable than some of the others but it’s not bad and can be had cheaply.

Some time on Anglesey demoing probably wouldn’t hurt as you can get most of the boats listed either through the manufacturers or by speaking to Pete at summit to sea. Personally if price was the major factor I’d get a Delphin, the best boat is probably the xcite but you’d have to do a lot to get me away from my candy apple red glitter with starfish alaw (maybe the sea weed graphics). It’s not a boat for the shy though.

I disagree about plastic for rock hopping (although I’m in a minority). A composite boat scratches with minimal effect on drag, plastics don’t, it’s relatively easy to fix composite boats whereas plastics (if you break them) are more difficult to get done well. I prefer the responsiveness of a composite boat too.

I disagree about plastic for rock hopping (although I’m in a minority). A composite boat scratches with minimal effect on drag, plastics don’t, it’s relatively easy to fix composite boats whereas plastics (if you break them) are more difficult to get done well

Don’t necessarily disagree with that, but I think it depands on just how serious you’re going to get. I know exactly what you mean about the effects of scuffs and scratches on drag on plastic boats, but I think it won’t effect the majority of paddlers unless they’re serious expeditioners.

I prefer the responsiveness of a composite boat too

Yep … that’s why I got a composite boat, but at the time (15 years ago) plastic moulding wasn’t as advanced as it is today and aren’t the edges on plastic boats much improved?

I’m not really that up to date with the market as paddling has dropped down the activities list a little behind climbing, walking and cycling so am happy to stand corrected!

what about a siton?

something like Tootega

petec – Member
what about a siton?

something like Tootega

Shows true sea kayaking snobishness and shakes head 🙂

You at least dignified it with a response. 🙂

Possibly, possibly

But in the OP there was more of a pootling vibe going on. Relaxing, so nice wide stable boat wins every time. Surely?

Sit on tops are slugs though and he asked for ability to cover distance and manoeuvrability neither of which you get from a SoT.

True.

I’ll get me coat.

Sit on paddling and sea kayaking are two totally separate activities.

Sit on’s great for pootling but you can’t cover distance and have all the manoeuvrability of a bath tub!

…. just noticed MrHopy’s post!!

I would not buy a boat at all at this stage and spend some money getting some training. If you buy a boat without understanding the basics of sea paddling you are less likely to enjoy your time on the water. There are lots of excellent sea kayak coaches in Anglesey who will provide a good weekends paddling and many have several different boats to try so you can make an educated choice when you decide to buy a boat.

Thanks for the replies (yes, even yours, petec!)…

I’ll get myself on a course, and also try to get along to the local club’s Friday evening paddles to see if I can scrounge a go in whatever they’re all paddling.

I couldn’t tell you why, but I’m drawn to composite rather than RM. I have access to an old Dancer and a sit-on (don’t tell anyone), neither of which do much for me – I just find them a bit cumbersome, somehow. No doubt I’m projecting, and not all plastic boats are the same, but it’s probably coloured my judgement subconsciously. I’m not sure my budget will run to composite, anyway!

Anyway, great advice, so thanks. I’ll get myself some training, and then go back to looking for my “quiver killer”.

Composites have better lines as you can get more acute angles, if nothing else it means they look better, combined with the shiny coating and the ability to have glitter of course you’re drawn to it.

Good plastic boats now aren’t bad but they still lose performance to a composite. If youre clumsy then they are more robust to large impacts but plastic is softer an will scratch more easily.

Try ukrgb sea section for advice too.

Interesting.

Potentially looking to get a sea boat myself. Half tempted to pick up a plastic one on eBay and get some use out of it – although part of me says hang tight and look at a few over a year or so. Tiderace look very nice…!

mrhoppy – Member
Sit on tops are slugs though and he asked for ability to cover distance and manoeuvrability neither of which you get from a SoT.

The bath tubs sold as sit ons give good boats a bad name. Get a proper surf ski. Long and fast.

I far preferred mine to the Nordkapps I owned, and I regularly paddled out to offshore islands on the Great Barrier Reef in all sorts of weather.

If you get tipped out it’s no big deal because you can be back on in seconds.

Edit unnecessary cheeky hijack

You’re in the right area with Alaw and Delphin – find a good secondhand one and you won’t lose much if you do decide to sell it on after a season. Given your paddling background, it won’t take you long to get up to speed on the sea, provided you can find the right people to paddle with and learn from. Where are you based and where are you likely to paddle?

I have got an Alaw bach and a Gemini SP. As noted by Mr. Hoppy, the Alaw handling can be somewhat unusual, particularly in strong winds. But its rock solid and has looked after me in much bigger sees than I should have been out in. The Gemini is not a typical Valley boat. Its very manoeuvrable and gives a much softer ride in big chop. However, it is a day/play boat albeit with a silly huge rear hatch and, as such, it might be better to go for something more all round….which is not really a Delphin. Opinions on the Delphi are polarised. It does not really handle like a traditional UK sea boat, e.g. edging etc. But is used as per the design brief its is certainly useful.

If I were starting from scratch and looking for a day/weekend boat, I would probably get a Romany. If needing more capacity, the NDK Explorer is probably worth a look.

For an all rounder, the most common recommendation is a Northshore Atlantic, which is available in composite and plastic.While not exciting, you would not go far wrong with one of these.

Modern plastic is great but it still gets furred up in time and is harder to get on the roof of a car.

As with bikes, the recommendation is to do lots of demos. Unfortunately, like with bikes, a demo does not give you much more than an indication that the boats fits. Best option is to join a club or go to a course provider that offers a range of boats to try.

In STW style, I’ll recommend what I have.

A P&H Scorpio.

http://www.phseakayaks.com/kayaks.php?kayak=Scorpio%20170

Happy with ours although very much a novice and fairly unable to discuss the pro’s and cons of various models.

I paddle a Delphin currently and love it. Managed to squeeze enough kit for a 4 day camping trip but most of my paddling is just day trips.

It is heavy, getting on and off the car/van can be a pain on my own but you can manage.

On the water it is stable and loves rough water. Rolls easily and seems robust (I’ve not broken it yet). Mine is a 155 (I’m 195cm and 105kg so need a large size). The deep front deck evan means my size 11 feet fit in well.

Surf ski, Epic, Think, nhk – take your pick.

Surf skis are totally inappropriate for the brief though, and a good fast sea kayak will go fast enough (not ski fast but fast) with more versatility.

Great thread! Just finished (last Friday) a five day intro to Sea Kayaking course with the Glenmore Lodge in Aviemore. It was amazing and highly recommended. One day spent in the Glenmore rolling pool and loch, and then four days on the west coast getting real sea experience. Tried composite and plastic, P and H and North Shore kayaks. Also a variety of paddles so got a good chance to experience what worked well. That said I think I’d still wait and continue to try other kayaks in more conditions before making a purchase.

Interested to know how people get their kayaks around after purchase…..

Interested to know how people get their kayaks around after purchase…..

On a roof rack 🙂

Currently using two Thule Kayak Carrier 874 to get our two boats onto the top of a Land Rover Discovery. We have to load from the back onto the rear craddle and then push the boat forwards.

Previously, on the top of an estate car we used a couple of J Bars.

People’ll have different ways or views on the subject. It’s a question of what works for you. A few tips that you might find helpful:

1. Always check the hatches are on properly
2. It’s worth investing in a cockpit cover
3. Tempting as it is, don’t load stuff in the boat before putting it on the roof … you’ll knacker your back in no time at all!

a five day intro to Sea Kayaking course with the Glenmore Lodge

🙂 … excellent! I did a similar course at PyB. Highly recommended!

Happy Paddling!

I would be interested to hear where folks paddle, especially from those who live away from the obvious areas (eg: N Wales/West Coast of Scotland, SW etc) — all those places are now a 4 hour + journey for me now 🙁

Don’t use ratchet straps. Normal luggage straps like; http://www.halfords.com/motoring/roof-bars-roof-boxes/roof-box-accessories/thule-523-luggage-straps
work fine.

I always tie down the ends to the front and rear tow rings. I got a spare towing eye when I got the car so I screw one in the front and back.

Plastic boats I always use directly on roof bars with just a vertical. Composite boats I put in V or J cradles which hold the hull a little better.

mrhoppy – Member
Surf skis are totally inappropriate for the brief though, and a good fast sea kayak will go fast enough (not ski fast but fast) with more versatility.

I’m talking about this sort of surf ski, not the inshore ones.

I used to go right out to the edge of the Barrier Reef on this one.

It’s skinnier than most sea kayaks, but if you want to stop, just dangle your legs in the water and it’s nice and stable, and you don’t have to worry about a capsize because you can jump straight back on.

I mostly just use bungees to carry my boats nowadays – can’t think of the last time I used straps, and I’m carrying around a 6m+ surfski. Though that’s loaded into proper V bars designed for racing kayaks http://www.kirtonkayaks.co.uk/home/shop/shop-racks/134-v-bar-kit The support points where the kayak sits are a lot further apart on those than with normal roof bars, meaning that the forces are a lot lower, hence I’ve never bothered with end ties either (not even when transporting 7m+ doubles – though 2 of those on the roof going up to Scotland meant I needed to retighten the roof rails on my car!) Not sure why more sea kayakers don’t use those – I presume you’ve got the Vs which bolt directly to the roof bars so don’t move the attachment points further apart?

Given his comment about speed I presume he knew what you were talking about, and I tend to agree – for the stated purpose it probably isn’t the best thing, not what I’d choose for rockhopping or exploring caves, where a bit more manoeuvrability is a good trade off for losing a little speed. Otherwise on the theme of recommending what you have I might have recommended one.

They are really good at getting about if you do mostly want to cover distance though – which is in reality what most sea kayak paddlers do most of the time. I’ve fitted a hatch in mine with the aim of doing skipacking (like kayak touring, but less kit 😉 ), though not tried that yet. I’d think a Epic V8 or a V7 would suit a lot of people very well, and they are indeed very different to what most people think of as a SoT (which are only suitable as platforms for fishing from IMHO). I probably would happily use one of those for everything the OP wants to do, which I wouldn’t want to do in my high performance racing one.

Not sure why more sea kayakers don’t use those

If by “those” you mean extended V-bars, I can tell you why I don’t. I have some, and use them with sprint/marathon boats, but not for a sea kayak. I’d have to lift it much higher to get it over the V, there’s extra windage from the bars, I could only fit two on the car, and being a strong and rigid hull, the sea kayak doesn’t need the support. I put my sea kayak on edge, against an upright, so that it’s sitting on the seam, which is the strongest part, and strap it tight to the bar and upright. I tie the ends to the towing eye not because I’m concerned about the boat coming off the rack, but the rack or the roof rails leaving the car – so I’d still tie the ends down if I used an extended V-bar.

Not convinced that’s a real issue with a modern car – certainly not with roof rails. Last time I can remember that happening to anybody I’m aware of was about 25 years ago to a car which was probably >15 years old at the time when the gutters rusted off (carrying polo boats with nowhere to tie ends down). My loosening roof rails I mentioned above were nowhere near coming off, it’s just that the wind loading from two >7m kayaks travelling at motorway speeds for hours resulted in a lot of wobbling. That was on a ’99 406, my current ’08 Mondeo has roof rails which are a lot more solid.

I’ve certainly never seen anybody tying the ends down when transporting racing kayaks or surfskis where almost everybody uses extended V-bars (and there isn’t generally anywhere easy to attach an end tie), and given the size of the boats I’d expect roofrack loading at speed to be more than with a sea kayak. I presume you don’t tie ends down with marathon boats?

dp

epicyclo – Member
mrhoppy – Member
Surf skis are totally inappropriate for the brief though, and a good fast sea kayak will go fast enough (not ski fast but fast) with more versatility.

I’m talking about this sort of surf ski, not the inshore ones.

Yeah, which isn’t really appropriate for the stable or manoeuvrable part of the brief. You can sit dangling your legs but that might be appealing off the GBR but it’s less appealing off the British coastline.

Looking at the pace that the ski paddlers I know do on strava I don’t think the speed benefit is that significant to when I’ve paddled a taran, and I wasn’t on wings. And I’d rather have the space and protection from the grotty conditions.

GBR? No problem doing that of Britain through the summer IME – I tend to paddle mine in wetsuit shorts with bare lower legs and feet and haven’t noticed it being an issue, though I am generally going at a fairly high intensity and generating heat, maybe more of an issue if you’re pootling, but then if you want to pootle you probably don’t want a surfski.

Looking at the pace that the ski paddlers I know do on strava I don’t think the speed benefit is that significant to when I’ve paddled a taran, and I wasn’t on wings. And I’d rather have the space and protection from the grotty conditions.

Not much in it from my experience of racing against John Willacy (who paddles a Taran). His engine is better and the surfski allows me to more or less match his pace – outside of racing I’d suggest the difference is irrelevant. Not that a Taran seems like the sort of boat you want for pootling, though I accept it’s better at that than a ski. Horses for courses.

mrhoppy – Member
Yeah, which isn’t really appropriate for the stable or manoeuvrable part of the brief. You can sit dangling your legs but that might be appealing off the GBR but it’s less appealing off the British coastline…

I preferred the stability of the surf ski. It just needed a kick of the rudder. As for leg dangling, I think I’d prefer to do it here. The list of things that could potentially bite them off in the GBR is endless, not to mention killer jellyfish. 🙂

I did have a shorter surfski for poking around inshore and it was very stable, but I have seen nothing like that over here. I suspect the antipathy to sit ons (understandable, I tried one, they’re dire) has prevented any move to develop such boats here.