Yep Propain tried getting too clever … they are making a 24/26 frame….
The result is a crap geometry 24

I’m guessing the Mondraker Factor also falls into this trap. It’s a shame, but there will always be a compromise when trying to fit different wheel sizes into the same bike

I’d like a bike with the weight of a Beinn but less xc/hybrid geometry. I’m sure they’re great but the bars looks painfully low and the stem is longer than mine.

There’s quite a choice (not compared to adults but not bad) already available.

The stock Isla’s are not really that light …. but I can’t see a market in rigid bikes that are not XC-Hybrid …

The modified Cannondale 24 above is lighter than the stock 24 Beinn and that’s with the Front suspension vs rigid.

Frame-weight is mostly unimportant in kids sizes…. at least in any half decent manufacturer… Even carbon doesn’t make much difference when the frame itself weighs less than a single tyre or a crankset …

Trailcraft shave a few grams off with their Titanium frames and forks but its really a few grams compared to the groupset – getting much below 10kg is about the groupset and not having suspension

In other words you can buy any decent frame and chuck all the groupset… fit forks, bars etc., build some wheels with Stans Crest and lighht hubs and stick on XT/XX spec…. or you can buy the Trailcraft or you can lease from Hope

I reckon (retrospectively) buying the trailcraft or leasing is cheaper.

I’m guessing the Mondraker Factor also falls into this trap. It’s a shame, but there will always be a compromise when trying to fit different wheel sizes into the same bike

Yep…. and though I sort of get-it (they are extending the usable time on a fairly expensive bike) they are compromising so much with the smaller wheel config it takes away the point….

By the time they are big enough for the 26 wheels… well you might as well get a XS adult bike… ?? So the window when its “goldlocks just right” would seem to be pretty small….

Steve I didn’t have anything more than a rigid until I was well into my 20s and there are no decent sus forks for a 20″ bike (where my lad is at for his next bike) so I’m very much thinking it won’t have any suspension but I’d still very much like it to ride well with decent proportions. He’s on a Cnoc 16 currently and that is a much more BMXy style of bike than the bigger wheeled geared bikes.

Am I going to have to start doing my own brand 20″ more progressive geo bikes for the more DH/Enduro/BMX orientated parents out there? It doesn’t that to be a geometron but it could certainly be less hybrid.

Double post

@Speeder, we’ve been having a similar discussion re:20″ bikes on a local fb enduro/messing about on bikes page. The general concensus is that an Orbea mx 20 dirt (fully rigid) with a nice big volume tyre plus stem, bars and seatpost upgrade (cos the oem ones are a tad heavy) ticks that box.

Ooh those do look interesting ocrider – pretty cheap too in comparison to Frog/Isla – will keep a look out for one on the 2nd hand market

Echo comments re Isla etc having low bars. My daughter had a 24″ wheel Frog and we moved her on from that sooner than maybe we needed to as she outgrew it too quickly at the front end.

Was a great bike, light etc, but she ended up too stretched and bent over that she got hip/back pain and started to hate riding, even with the steepest stem I could find on it. Bearing in mind she’s a double jointed gymnast, I felt a bit disappointed in that aspect.

Steve I didn’t have anything more than a rigid until I was well into my 20s and there are no decent sus forks for a 20″ bike (where my lad is at for his next bike) so I’m very much thinking it won’t have any suspension but I’d still very much like it to ride well with decent proportions. He’s on a Cnoc 16 currently and that is a much more BMXy style of bike than the bigger wheeled geared bikes.

Am I going to have to start doing my own brand 20″ more progressive geo bikes for the more DH/Enduro/BMX orientated parents out there? It doesn’t that to be a geometron but it could certainly be less hybrid.

Without spending a fortune on a 20″ then a BMX with gears isn’t a bad idea IMHO. (Lil Shredder do a 20…. if you wanted to invest well over £1000 so it is POSSIBLE – I’ve seen one in the flesh and they perform REALLY WELL)

Our 20er got 9 months use…. that was from him just about being big enough for the 20er to just about big enough on a 24er…. (he was really a bit small on both)

Steve I didn’t have anything more than a rigid until I was well into my 20s

Nothing other than rigid was even invented until I was well into my 20’s 😀

What I can say is after a few hours on the oversized for him 24 with suspension (RST F1rst with 60mm) my kids riding technical trails was transformed.

What happened is one day I forgot to unlock my forks on my HT…. and I realised that no way would I choose to ride what we were riding on a rigid…no wonder he had painful wrists and pumped arms…. It was somewhat scary until I realised half way down the descent and adjusted my line…

We had a Evans Pinnacle Ash which is basically “a BMX with gears” but it served very well for 9 months… but after 9 months he had pushed it to the limit and beyond…

Unless your kid is already doing big jumps and similar on the CNOC I’d say just keep with the BMX like geometry for the 20…. I’d just ignore the Hybrid/XC/CX type (Isla/Frog)

If climbing is an issue that’s addressable (the Enduro part) ….but remember the gear ratio’s on a 20 vs a 26 or larger

At this stage the main difference/resistance to upgrading is do you get a cassette or freewheel…. Your choices are obviously very limited with a freewheel so unless you get a bike with cassette or can get a 20″ wheel (build/buy) with cassette.

Orbea mx 20 dirt (fully rigid) with a nice big volume tyre

Pretty much fits the bill…. though it depends on if you want descents or climbing or both….

Fantastic discussion, cheers all!
Lots of bikes I didn’t realize existed either.

The Orbea MX range looks very good actually. Good price, okay components and reasonable weight. Clearly aimed somewhere at the middle of the market.

I suppose the issue around functional suspension is cost.. Sids lowered to 80mm would be a good compromise of weight and performance, but they cost a huge amount. It’s not economically viable for me to start making our own.

The rockshox gold 30 at 80mm is another reasonably light fork and a lot cheaper than a sid. Watch for ‘Friday afternoon’ assembly though. I would recommend a lower leg service straight away to ensure the right amount of oil in there.

Survey done.

Lot of talk about how bad kid’s bikes forks are, my boy had bikes bought by price (Haro) and a 2nd hander (Specialized) and the forks worked absolutely fine.

Recommended a friend get a Hotrock for his kid on the strength of that one and the quality had gone waaaayyy down! Bikes should get better with each release, not worse! You can’t seem to get anything like that Haro now.

Steve if he’s not jumping loads yet but I think it’s on the cards as he’s expressed and interest in building jumps but I’m not pushing him in this . At his own pace. I just don’t fancy him trying to jump on something so stretched out but he definitely wants gears on his next bike so it’s a bit of a challenge to find something that fits the bill, especially at the price I want to pay and that’s not much.

\i’m almost tempted to find a battered Beiin small and build it up with some fat tyres, short stem, risers and see if I can get some of the 20″ Spinner forks they put on those Lil Shredders – reckon that’d be a pretty sorted bike for a while.

If I had the cash I’d buy THIS

Speeder …. The commencal is probably a “downhill only”… (The 24’s are)

But perhaps the thing is you don’t need suspension to jump on clear jumps.. (even dirt jumpers push the pressure super high on forks and tyres so its just taking out the big hits and BMX etc.) but its important on a trail because of what happens AFTER you land… (tree roots, rocks, trees in the way etc.)

Its also a bit important on the trail they can keep hold of the bars 😀 and fatigue/arm pump

I’m completely with you on the stretched out geometry…. quite honestly I wonder how my kid keeps control when his back wheel jumps and his front dives… I’m not really that happy with it but with the stretched geometry I can’t see a way round it… I just don’t like the fact he’s accepted it and learning bad trail technique… (though obviously it makes the stuff he does on XC tame)

Like I said we only used the 20 for 9 months… and its pretty much BMX geometry… you can switch to shorter stem (£5 delivered from China) etc.

I think lots of the 20’s (excepting Isla/Frog) are more BMX geometry … its more the “hybrid” ones that start to stretch???

I’d also question how wide a tyre you’ll fit in the Beinn …. (I don’t know but I suspect it will be limited) … I know we had little clearance for wider on the Evans 20…. (which is theoretically for sale in your price range btw)

@stevextc

Drop offs – in that video your son is eyes down, arms soft and weight stationary.

Has he tried looking up at a landing point, some heels down, weight down and then firmly push the bike forward with feet while hauling/rotating bars back a bit?

I will see if I can dig out a couple of YouTube videos on manualling, just on phone at moment.

I have similar sized kids at bike club who can manual off drop offs on longer, heavier bikes easily with right technique

done

@Matt… yep he’s tried… I’m not sure which other video’s on my YouTube are public… if anything he’s regressed …

Some of the other videos are me saying “heels down” … “push with your feet” etc. the reason I made that video (all slo-mo) is to show him but he’s now given up and he’s just trying to carry speed for the tabletop..

The problem is (I think) even with his arms at full stretch his bum is forwards of the wheel centre… so its 100% the movement not helped by his weight being further back

The point I really noticed this was when fitting a speed/cadence sensor to his chainstays and his pedals barely overlap the rim…

I have similar sized kids at bike club who can manual off drop offs on longer, heavier bikes easily with right technique

Where about are you ? We are in Surrey this week but hopefully will be up at Guisburn Forest all next half term week… It would be great to see other kids and I think a HUGE motivator for him.

I think at least 50% of the problem is he has given up…

He got told by some older kid at a local bike club race “Oh don’t worry about manuals, I can’t do them” … we almost had it with a home made ramp as well…

If he could see other kids doing it I think he’d refresh his efforts on the manual…which are presently more about carrying speed through the drop-offs for the table top.

Another observation on manuals though is they are all about technique and timing and that comes though as “feel”…. but geometry gives a lot more latitude … but once you can do it on an easy to manual bike you can transfer that to a harder to manual.

(I used to struggle on my XC bike… hired a bottom of the range Whyte one weekend and was manual-ling effortlessly before I hit the end of the car park… when my frame came back and I transferred the “feeling” I found it much easier on my XC frame… )