get yourself to bc,canada!

There’s some issues with parks in the Whistler alpine. Once you start heading out around Singing Pass you’re in a protected wilderness zone, and they’re pretty restrictive about the kinds of activities you can do out there.

smoke – Member

There’s some issues with parks in the Whistler alpine. Once you start heading out around Singing Pass you’re in a protected wilderness zone, and they’re pretty restrictive about the kinds of activities you can do out there.

Absolutely, other options include heading out over towards the Cheakamus side.. or over Blackcomb way… Peak to Peak is intended to increase summer visits and I’m pretty sure we’ll see the bike park activities develop on the Blackcomb side in the next few years.
Whistler Blackcomb have already guided Khybers on XC bikes… so that kind of riding is on the radar.

Do you guys in Canada have the same issues with people shunning trail centres as they are purpose built??

ah wow cove-transition-genesis like the you tube video! 🙂

IHN:

Maybe ‘contrived’ is a better word.

Hmm.. so you get on your bike, ride around in a big circle back to where you started, on man-made trails (they are all man made of course) and you are worried about things being contrived?

It just seems like a really strange reason for not liking trail centres, and further to that it seems that you are bringing preconceived ideas to the trail centres and letting that cloud your experience of the actual trails. But I could be wrong 🙂

When I rode the original Karrimor trail all I thought was ‘what brilliant singletrack’. It all looks a bit old now tho.

So back to my question – what would make purpose built trails the best trails to ride for those who don’t like purpose built cycling trails?

Well, I’d like to see all round black XC trails – some more technical stuff like the climb at Cwmcarn with some harder downhill bits interspersed – maybe like the Whyte’s black or like the top section of DH course at Cwmcarn. Then there could be red trails like the current Whyte’s, Penhydd etc for a change or for less experienced riders – that could include swoopy fast stuff like Brechfa. There should also be blue/green trails like Brechfa – easy for beginners but still interesting, and still brilliant fun for experienced riders to ride dead fast.

There should also be at least one downhill run with a chairlift, and a rideable climb back to the top or to various points along it.

In addition, all these trails should interlink and overlap so that you can mix and match sections as you like. There also needs to be signposts or waymarks on some of the natural trails in the area, of which there should be plenty over a large area – like that waymarked route in the Beacons.

Oh and a jump park too.

Interlinking trails would be awesome so you can make up your own using different sections of the trails – endless fun.

The trails out in New Zealand have this in abundance and I could have spent weeks exploring them all and deciding on my favorite route. The places that stick in my mind were Rotorua, Woodhills and Wanaka, the latter was a tiny place but loads of trails packed in. Bit like loads of sections of Cannock all linking up.

Here’s a link to the Woodhills map to give you an idea (Clicky)

http://www.riderotorua.com/maps/ForestMap66Layout2007LOWres.jpg

Here’s Rotorua’s

Jeez, mucho trails. That first map looks like an early Jackson Pollock..

Bushwacked – Member

Do you guys in Canada have the same issues with people shunning trail centres as they are purpose built??

Well, not exactly. We don’t have “trail centers” in the sense that you’re referring to. We have bike parks, like Whistler and Silverstar. Lift serviced downhill trails. They’re fun, but they’re not exatly the same as the “off-piste” trails. You don’t go to the parks to ride XC either, so there’s no purpose built stuff like you’re referring to. We’re building trails for specifically for bikes, but consider the topography we get to play with.

It’s a bit different when you can access 5000′ of vertical behind a winery, and with so much crown land around there’s not the same kind of issues as in the UK where almost everything is private.

Generally speaking, I much prefer the non-park riding. The trails tend to be nicer, as they’re not ridden on so much and they just stay in better condition. But certain things can only be done at bike parks, so I ride those a few times a year as well. I’m spoiled, though. I’ve got literally thousands of km of singletrack within 4 hours, and 2 major bike parks withing daytrip distance. Another one is due to come online within a few years, and Whistler is only 5 hours away.

Smoke – it sounds too perfect to be true – I’m off to bed to dream of the world you live in!!! 😉

The other point to make about MTB specific trails in BC is that they are not built to the lowest common denominator like they often can be in the UK. I’ve ridden ‘XC’ trails around Whistler that are harder than any DH race track that I’ve been on in the UK. These are official WORCA sanctioned trails that are mapped and signed, not cheeky trails. Even the easiest trails on Mt Fromme up the road from where I work are at least as hard as anything in dumbed down era Coed Y Brenin. This is a key reason why BC ‘trail centres’ or areas with MTB specific trails are respected, not scoffed at and why many Canadians are so damned good on a bike.

GT Black wouldn’t be too far away from my ideal trail – Nice length, great scenery, beautifully balanced in terms of different trail types. It just lacks a bit of technical stuff on the ups and downs. A class trail has to have at least one climb and one descent that you don’t make all the time, where it feels great to ride it clean. This could probably be done for the climbs at GT, say make 1 or 2 sections of the radio mast climb a lot rockier (sure this would be very popular :)). The descents are what they are I guess, difficult to make the boundary trail very interesting short of a total re-reroute.

What bushwhacked said about interlinking trails.
I’ve been on a few road trips up to Rotorua and there is so much scope for linking different trails together depending on your mood/bike.

As for Wanaka, Sticky Forest has quite possibly the worst trail map I’ve ever seen in my life. Good riding but without a local guide it sucks.

Cove-transition-genesis, not seen that vid of the Wainui trails before but I know them well. Makara, Wrights Hill, Polmont and Mt Vic are all a lot closer to me but I often end up driving the extra KM’s out and doing a few loops. Occasionly with a couple of loops of Danzig/The Slide in Belmont after.

Yeah – the Wanaka map sucks – I was given some advice on trails to look out for but there was so much to explore – wish the FC built or allowed trails to be built in the same way over here…

I’ll take a real beast of a climb,technichal, physically tiring, and just a complete bitch. Maybe an hour and a half or so with the odd bit of flat to rest on. Then when i get to the top i’d like to find one of those new trek session 88’s. Then from there, a really technichal, steep, route back down. ANd can i have some big drops please? Something along the lines of the CHampery Dh course

As to whether i could ride the above, I’m not sure…

is it just me that thinks soem traisl can be too technical? Take the beast for example, unless you’ve got a death with it’s a slow plod allong down to the bottom (or an off the brakes run up followed by shittting yourself). Where’as stanage plantation run and blaka moor are much more fun as off the brakes for as long as you dare kind of rides.

ohh, and corners that reward you for good technique, not just berms followed by imediately by a downhill slope for numpties to regain their speed on.

ideal trail center should be rideable off the brakes, on a singlespeed (in other words, a giant 50 mile pump track would be nice 🙂 )

Sometimes I like the kind of scailectric biking you get at places like Afan, but i think in general, i enjoy tecnichal stuff more. Its still great fun… The beast is a good track, but I wouldn’t say its really technichal… Unless you tried to climb it.

thisisnotaspoon –

ideal trail center should be rideable off the brakes, on a singlespeed (in other words, a giant 50 mile pump track would be nice )

Dear God no. That is exactly what a trail centre should not be, if you want that, go on a rollercoaster.

What walleater says is 100% on the money. Somewhere like whistler (although almost impossible in the uk on that scale) is the perfect “trail centre”. People who’ve never been have this misconception that it’s all just like A-line, the reality is it has every level and style of riding you could possibly wish for. There are huge “natural” dh trails in whistler that are some of the best, most technical and difficult you’re likely to find. You rarely see them in videos because they arent photogenic and dont appeal to “trail park” riders.

This is why the more I think about it the more I think interlinking trails are the way forward.

Imagine a number of trails – take all the trail centre trails in the UK – running down the same hill roughly in parallel and broken into sections, so you can pick and choose which sections you want to ride. (obviously not necessarily cutting across each other at the fast points but at points where speed / chance of collisions is less). So you start on section 26 and at the end of that section you could go onto Sections 15, 32 or 8 for example depending on what you wanted to do and your skill level.

So some days you want something which is gentle and flowing and maybe something for the beginners (or for a hangover), other days something quick, other days something with a bit of northshore or jumps and other days something seriously crazy for the big bikes or you may just want to mix it all up…

It would be awesome – something for everyone and almost endless options for creating the kind of ride you want to do that day… I bet it could be easily done in places like the current trail centres – just need to start putting in some trails running kinda parallel.

Interesting about the “Lowest common denominator” remark. Check this out:

Whistler Trail Standards

That’s a legal document that covers trail building standards that is being adopted worldwide as the way to do it. It’s excellent, and it lets you build pretty much anything.

Even stuff that Jedi likes.

Interlinked trail systems are the natural way to go, but they work better in areas with more vertical. It’s more difficult to make them functional in flatter areas, as you get so many variables with peoples skill vs fitness that you get more limitations on where you can put the various options. What we see more of is optional difficult sections and “TTF’s” on trails that will keep the more technically minded riders amused while still giving an easy out for less skilled. It’s all in that link.

from the self confessed warped view of whistler that whistler diaries gives, that was what i was trying to describe! Anyway, whats wrong with a rollercoaster? Pesonaly i like the fact theres only a few corners at canock that need any brakeing, and im aiming to get them sorted into the brakeless cateory this weekend!

Personaly I cant wait for innerleithen to get its chairlift, just hope it gets used to the best potential with whistler style trails for everyone, includig a World level DH track, some national tracks, some local tracks, some smooth tracks, smooth tracks with jumps, smooth tracks without jumps, jumpy tracks with no smooth, the list goes on……

thisisnotaspoon – Member
from the self confessed warped view of whistler that whistler diaries gives, that was what i was trying to describe! Anyway, whats wrong with a rollercoaster? Pesonaly i like the fact theres only a few corners at canock that need any brakeing, and im aiming to get them sorted into the brakeless cateory this weekend!

There is nothing “wrong” with smooth flowy trails, but I strongly favour a natural, more technical style of trail as I find them more of a challenge and more rewarding. I’ll take Champery dh track over a line because I’ll feel a greater sense of achievement having overcome a greater challenge.

If we are talking about building trails then obviously I’d prefer that new imaginary trails would cater to my tastes, anyone would. Smooth flowy trails are all well and good for a momentary diversion but I dont think any trail centre should be predominately man made rollercoaster style trails as they actually get away from my idea of what mtbing is about.

Oh and tut tut to you for believing anything in whistler diaries.

Not all trail centres are smooth flow. Cwmcarn isn’t, at least not for much of it – now that it’s eroded in nicely and is good and rocky. I’d like more Cwmcarn-like trails at say Afan.

The Whistler trail standards are superb although its worth noting that as soon as these standards are applied to trails on private land – they’re not worth much as private land owners are still quite nervous about the inherent risks of liability associated with TTF’s. This is probably a major reason that the UK doesn’t see a higher level of technicality at all trail centers. Not because its too expensive to build natural trail, but because its potentially more likely to lead to legal issues.
Ultimately I’d imagine that machine built trail is more expensive to build than a well built natural trail.
Chris Markle (of Comfortably Numb fame) spend months building some superb woodwork in a new development in Whistler under the employment of the developer, only be told to take it down as the developer was concerned about the potential risk on their land. These features were all built to the trail standards.

Another great thing about Whistlers bike club is that now that trails are becoming legally recognised, WORCA can operate in a no net loss method whereby if a land developer intends to remove existing trail they have to rebuild (re-route) trail to a higher standard and in more quantity.

Also worth pointing out is that existing trail that fail to meet the trail standards guidelines are being brought up to standard, re-routed or in cases – decommissioned.

Theres certainly a lot to be learned from Whistler and many other BC riding communities too. Theres also still lots for Whistler to learn.