I fail to see how a hardtail is any more versatile than an FS!

vondally. I see your point there maybe I'm just too slow to need a big ring.

"larger ring is needed"

It's a fair point. I was looking at my big rings in the spares box last night (clear-out time) and some of the poor teeth look like they've been filed down. On flatter rides, esp. with road sections, I have missed the big ring – but not enough to make me want it back on.

Which bit?

pretty much all of it!

it's all very well quoting what a particular Orange frame is capable of.. but don't generalise about stuff you know nothing about! I managed fairly easily to get 13" of rear wheel travel out of a single pivot bike with 17" seatstays and that was with a 2.5" tyre. (I rode DH on this set-up with around 5.5" of sag while injured)
also from what you've said, you don't even know what the braking performance is like on a D-W bike nevermind being able to compare it to an FSR. if a bike has a horst link it does not automatically have great braking performance nor does it automatically pedal a certain way.

your first post is a load of pish too.

I managed fairly easily to get 13" of rear wheel travel out of a single pivot bike with 17" seatstays and that was with a 2.5" tyre.

223 with a longer shock in the slackest setting? fits quite well with my argument, the swingarm is loooooonnng to flatten out the axel path and avoid the seat-tube.

It's vertical position (well above the chainline) is the point at which the wheel starts to move forewards (so below this point it is moving backwards to stop pedal bob), so in fact the 5's swingarm actualy has a foreward axel path, hence travel is limited by a combination of chainstay length and tire/wheel size.

Did you see the MOJO prototype/one-off ornages at fort bill a few years ago, S-shaped DT to get the pivot lower, but with a long swingarm to flatten out the axel path. Essentialy a 223's pedaling performance with a better axel path.

As for braking performance of maestro, i never said it was bad, just that spesh bikes i've tried were better (IMO).

I think I'd now go for a full-susser as my do-it-all. If you get a good one – and know how to set it up – they can ride with all the feedback of a hardtail but also have a bit more fun. IMHO.

Benji I think that is the key point about setting up the full suss correctly….god I still am trying..and this is what gets a lot of designs a bad rep, Maverick may have got it right not a lot to fiddle around with more or less stock settings, like graphic equalizers just too many things to mess around with!…but for an all UK bike it has to be full suss just more versatlity.

maybe I wasn't quite clear in my last post but I honestly couldn't care less about Orange's simple, dated frame designs 😛