sv – you'd almost be funny if you weren't such a ****

i grew up there and must admit, never felt that there should have been more murdering going on. friends inside a few plastic bags chucked in a coffin kind of puts you off violence. Maybe you lived out in Holywood?

What TJ said

sv – you'd almost be funny if you weren't such a ****

Thanks.

i grew up there and must admit, never felt that there should have been more murdering going on. friends inside a few plastic bags chucked in a coffin kind of puts you off violence

It didnt put the terrorists off murdering innocent civilians did it?

Can I just add all the 'hype' of yesterday and today has got on my nerves, yeah they had family memebers (innocent) shot dead. So what – how many others families had this happen to them? The BS families got a stage and media coverage (and £200M), what are other victims getting? You know the ones who were going about their daily lives, not marching or demonstrating just living.

+1 for what TJ said.

Maybe you lived out in Holywood?

Sorry forgot to add the PIRA still operated in Ards/North Down, I was 50m away when a policewoman got her legs blown off in the last bombing of Bangor.

Nice MLAs we have eh 🙄

sv do you have any comment to make on murder by people other than the IRA? I think we have all got your view of them but you seem to ignore the acts of "your" side. SO back OT
Do you think the army were correct to kill innocent civilains who were not armed? What exactly was the difference between what they did and what the IRA did?

It didnt put the terrorists off murdering innocent civilians did it?

Tht is correct the actions you support [more SAS style murders] was unsuccesful in preventing the IRA well spotted why do you support it then?

was unsuccesful in preventing the IRA

Loughgall incident would say different and its more of this I would have liked – used against all paramiltaries/armed groups.

I dont have a 'side' PIRA/UVF or whatever they were/are all murdering scum. The British army did get it wrong in certain areas but they were the difference (alongside the RUC) between the fragile normality and civil war.

sv – where do you stand on Moshe Dayan, Jomo Kenyatta and Nelson Mandela then? All were in very similar positions to McGuiness and Adams.

One persons terrorist is anothers freedom fighter. Only by talking do civil wars end.

Moshe Dayan is well worth looking into for a great example of this paradox

Drifting way OT but the Military has to react to what problems it encounters, they dont make the laws and i am not saying they are above the law but it is easy to be a victim of circumstances when you started on the right side as many a soldier has found out not just in the NI conflict.

As for preventing the IRA well ask the Fermanagh boys or the Armargh boys, they did not want to play once they had a slapping or two.

Having been at Ternhill when they tried to blow us up in our sleep just like the RM barrack in Deal i unsurprisingly dont have much sympathy for them and the cause but it wont go away just because a political inquest appears and gives a PC answer, lets be honest once BP shuts the leaking well off or England win their next game this will drop of the horizon and the only people that will really care are the ones that lost family on both sides.

Incidently and ironically an Irish Lad was awarded a decoration for his actions at Tern Hill he kept a load of us living that night to which i remain eternally gratefull and like i said in a previous post there are some good people over there, cheers Paddy.

This thread does more to demonstrate the Soloman like wisdom of Nelson Mandela than any biographer could ever do. It also emphasises the idiocy of our lot, who have commissioned the bloody thing and not foreseen the angst that will issue forth from it.

Having now read through the conclusions and where relevant detail of the report, it is very clear that Saville is saying that there were armed terrorists in the vicinity on Bloody Sunday, the Paras were keyed up as a result of fore knowledge and briefing. Due to on the ground operational issues, the paras split up, and in the resultant confusion opened fire believing they were being fired upon. Whether they were or not is another story, and isn't really covered in any great detail beyond reporting the presence of the sub machine gunner, nail bomber and an IRA sniper unit, which obviously were there entirely innocently and took no active part whatsoever………..

Clearly during the troubles there was wrong on all sides, and some right too. The important issue is to move on, so like Mandela did, lets have confessions all round, t1t for tat forgiveness and then lets move on as the way forward IMHO.

Only by talking do civil wars end

It wasnt a civil war or indeed a war – Geneva Convention followed?

One persons terrorist is anothers freedom fighter

To a normal person it is fairly obvious what the paramiltaries are.

sv – so Mandela then? Active in a "terrorist" organisation responsible for bombing of civilians including children.

Moshe Dayan – imprisoned by the British for his involvement in a "terrorist" organisation that had blown up and killed British soldiers. Released to fight on the allied side in WW2 which he did with distinction.

Of course it was a civil war – not following the Genenva convention does not stop it being a war.

Terrorist / freedom fighter depends on your viewpoint – look at the two examples I gave

TJ – so because you have examples from other situations around the globe it makes it ok?

I might be a little slow but how was it a civil war? I suppose it depends on your definition of a civil war.

the presence of the sub machine gunner, nail bomber and an IRA sniper unit, which obviously were there entirely innocently and took no active part whatsoever

Nice use of sarcasm there.

While agreeing it was (obviously) a highly stressful situation for the Paras the fact remains that the people they shot were *not* the sub machine gunner *or* the snipers, and the guy with a nail bomb in his pocket was hit purely by accident.

Clearly during the troubles there was wrong on all sides, and some right too. The important issue is to move on, so like Mandela did, lets have confessions all round, t1t for tat forgiveness and then lets move on as the way forward IMHO.

Also agree with that.

Moving on is fine but having gone through the Bosnian slaughter and spoke to both sides it will take hundreds of years as they referred to incidents that happened three hundred years ago when we asked them why they did what they did to each other ?

There are still retards shooting unarmed soldiers outside barracks in NI so dont hold your breath. Remember the funeral of the last RUC member to die ? i do i spent a fair amount of time working over there and i still picture his son in the hearse driving up the hill into the church, the lad was laughing, on the drive back down the hill he was was crying, reality hit, do you think he will forgive and forget easily, especially when the toe rag sorry suspect who shot his dad is still walking free. Time is a healer but not a quick one.

SV – I mention these people because they were in a very similar situation to McGuiness and Adams. Once deemed terrorists and now considered to be statesmen.

The only solution to fighting such as this is to talk to both sides.

lets have confessions all round

Probably needs to happen, gotta be a difficult one though. If/when the MLAs tell their part how can we go on with known murderers in gov?

Known murders? Really? Mandela seems to get on fine as a revered elder stateman. Moshe Dayan became an alled war hero despite being responsible for the killing of British soldiers in the 30s ( IIRC)

While agreeing it was (obviously) a highly stressful situation for the Paras the fact remains that the people they shot were *not* the sub machine gunner *or* the snipers, and the guy with a nail bomb in his pocket was hit purely by accident.

Think about that statement!

I have done. And?

TJ — So in a few years when we have made friends with Osama Bin Laden Et Al i reckon he or one of his mates could make Lord Mayor of London, mind you demographics would indicate that will happen anyway or as Colonel Gadaffi said "Islam does not need a war to take over the World" Brilliant all sorted.

Moshe Dayan became an alled war hero despite being responsible for the killing of British soldiers in the 30s

Look forward to Martin and Gerrys spell in Helmand Province, maybe Ruane could help out too (the latter would help our education system return to educating children).

Moshe Dayan was a soldier not a twunt who hid behind civillians, maybe Martin and Gerry will do well in Helmand after all.

but it is easy to be a victim of circumstances when you started on the right side as many a soldier has found out not just in the NI conflict.

You give away your entrenched position with that one

To a normal person it is fairly obvious what the paramiltaries are

You mean it is easy to see if they agree with you as TJ notes many people have been labelled a terrorist by one side and a hero by the other as indeed are the IRA and the paras. Can you not get this point?

especially when the toe rag sorry suspect who shot his dad is still walking free.

What like your brave para mates who were a victim of circumstances when they started shooting unarmed people and killed them?
Do you think the children of those they killed then cried at their funeral od do only proud protestants suffer?
You can only see it from the view of the police/state/army. Many people lost loved ones. Many people after seeing their mates shot joined the IRA were they also victims of circumstances? You do need to be able to see both sides in this conflict not just your own and your own victims.
Perhaps you two could get a room and maintain your one sided view of a conflict where by only the others did bad things and your side should be annoited for their bravery.

Having now read through the conclusions and where relevant detail of the report, it is very clear that Saville is saying that there were armed terrorists in the vicinity on Bloody Sunday, the Paras were keyed up as a result of fore knowledge and briefing. Due to on the ground operational issues, the paras split up, and in the resultant confusion opened fire believing they were being fired upon. Whether they were or not is another story,

You make a very, very relevant point here – especially since people like to bandy about words like "murder" so often in the case of NI. It would be entirely reasonable to ask whether Bloody Sunday would ever have happened if the IRA had not already made a point of using the cover of marches for attacks with firearms and bombs. The perception of what was happening to the troops on the ground at the time, given the "fog of war" may well have been that they were under attack!

The IRA cannot shake responsibility for putting in place a great many of the stepping stones that led to the tragic events of that day. Nor should we overlook the fact that for over 30 years they have lied through their teeth about their involvement and actions on the day, whilst all the time accusing the government of a whitewash.

Fine, Junkyard. Now, tell me this – do you think Gerry makes something of an arse of himself when he claims that Bloody Sunday is the defining story of the British army in Ireland?

And what would be the defining story of the PIRA, in your view?

The perception of what was happening to the troops on the ground at the time, given the "fog of war" may well have been that they were under attack!

As a specific example of that the report mentions the sound of shots fired over the heads of a crowd by a lieutenant early on, which might have been interpreted as incoming fire by soldiers elsewhere in the area.

Still doesn't excuse shooting wounded victims in the back though.

Nor should we overlook the fact that for over 30 years [the IRA] have lied through their teeth about their involvement and actions on the day

Indeed. And so did many of the soldiers, it seems.

Junkyard – Entrenched maybe, experienced at been in situations i find i had to make a snap decision for the right or wrong yes. I am not standing up for what happened far from it but you rightly say you need to see it from both sides and in reference to the RUC son and his funeral my parting line is relevant to both parties. Time and healing etc. For the record i have no sysmpathy for anyone who took up arms, went on the streets and intended to kill that day, apply that to both sides.

Mate i must be mellowing, i used to advocate blanket bombing of Crossmaglen when i served there, we would watch the Yanks travelling through the occupied land on coach trips, oh how i laughed, i also thanked the genuine person who would sneak out and to leave a crate of ale or a cake for you, the person who would wish you luck at a check points. but now i advocate selective strikes on certain targets. 😉 Utrique Paratus

anokdale – Member

Moshe Dayan was a soldier not a twunt who hid behind civillians, maybe Martin and Gerry will do well in Helmand after all.

he was a member of an illegal "terrorist" group in Palestine in the 30s the Hagenah for which he was arrested and imprisoned by the British. By no meaningful definition was he a soldier at that time. He was living in the british mandate of Palestine.

That is the simple point – terrorist or freedom fighter is very dependent on your viewpoint. Mandela was complicit in the murder of children from one point of view.

TJ – You spent all that time researching Dayan !! point is would Gerry and Martin now pick up arms for Britain, doubt it, but they will pick up a better pension than most people on this forum from the Parliment they openly detest. Not that they need the cash as they both have mansions in the South though Martin still has his hovel in Londonderry to remind him of his roots.

The perception of what was happening to the troops on the ground at the time, given the "fog of war" may well have been that they were under attack!

Perhaps they were so ill trained they mistook people running away for running towards them and unarmed as armed due to the fog of war ……is their training really that bad ?
The Adams article seemed reasonable from his view and semed balanced in much the same way as Daves comments seemed fair and balanced. One likes the army one does not…its like they have different views 😯
I am not qualified to say what would be the defining story of the PIRA Brightom bombing ????
Anokdale much more reasoned but you got the motto wrong 😳
Utrinque Paratus Yes I googled to see what it meant.

anokdale – no – I was off out to the shops running errands!

I have looked in Dayan before as he is such a complex character and is a great example of how one persons terrorist is another freedom fighter.

Junkyard – Might have mispelled it but i did not have to google it to know what it means and what it stands for. In your case the democratic right to spout off shit@ is afforded by soldiers who have given everything so you can abuse them because they made a mistake, granted a huge one, but they did not ask to be there that day and like the troops in Helmand today they do it and in doing so allow you the time to ride your bike worry what tyres for wet grass etc etc , post on forums and comment on scenarios you will never have the misfortune to face with some of the most trusted and respected men you could ever wish to meet.

Excellent. We have the military solidarity perspective with regard to (as Goldstone puts it) the opening of fire against civilians.

What this thread really needs right now is chewkw and a big bag of nice, smelly glue.

anokdale – as I said earlier it was a whole series of mistakes – not just the decision to shoot in the heat of the moment but they were the wrong troops to police the march, the politicians had made serious mistakes that led to the conditions for the march and the anger. Other mistakes as well.

The Adams article seemed reasonable from his view

Yes, it's almost as if he was Rosa Parks herself. So righteous!

"someone started to sing We Shall Overcome and I was swept back over 40 years"

🙄

The perception of what was happening to the troops on the ground at the time, given the "fog of war" may well have been that they were under attack!

This really is trolling isn't it? Even a cursory reading of the report is enough to realise just how out of control these soldiers were on that day. They shot and killed unarmed civilians, who were both running away, and tending to the wounded and dying, there are no circumstances I can think of where professional soldiers could make those sorts of 'mistakes' due to the fog of war, and to compound their manifest lack of control they lied about it after. Now, whether you can justify this this with "But look what the other side were doing" is for ones own concious I suppose, but by any measure this was not the Army's finest hour in that awful conflict.

if only I could share your one sided view of the conflict 🙄

Anokdale….If my democratic right was really under threat I would take up arms with them. Most of what they are fighting for, by choosing to serve in the army, is IMHO imperialist bullsh1t. If they want to give their lives for that then that is their choice. I respect it as much as they respect my right not to join, fight or die for something I dont believe in…se we are equal though they are braver. We are not talking about Nazis trying to invade our country and trully end our way of life [by either the IRA or Islam]whatever right wing hawk view you, and your fellow brave troops, wish to swallow.
EDIT: Nickc dont be coming here making a reasonable point in a reasonable way this is STW FFS 😆

TandemJeremy, you keep referencing Dayan as your "great example of how one persons terrorist is another freedom fighter." did he do indiscriminate bomb attacks on civilian targets killing many people with no involvement in the battle he was fighting? If not why not select a more relevant terrorist as your comparator, i.e. Bin Larden?

Is comparing terrorist leaders a bit like comparing criminals, is a woman who murdered an abusive husband comparable to a serial killer?

You mean it is easy to see if they agree with you as TJ notes many people have been labelled a terrorist by one side and a hero by the other as indeed are the IRA and the paras. Can you not get this point?

So a hero maims innocent civilians for example the newspaper seller at Oxford St bus station who was blown apart by the PIRA – nice standards you have there.