I nearly posted a proper comment on here just now but….
Too depressing.
Most 4×4 are…. Majority of Geen-laners are….. They’re all the same you know…

OOh look! Red ones in my sock draw.

Be careful what you wish for, it’ll be us next who’ll be banned…

glad you said that b r

it’s a point that all too few grasp!!!!

First of all something to grasp. Those who argue that there are 188,700 kilometres of RoW in England and Wales but only 3,700 km of BOATs then go on to argue that they are not offroaders they are traveling on ‘roads’. However if that is the case there are 188,700Km of lesser RoW and well over 400,000Km or A, B and lesser classified roads. So motor users have by far more places to drive than a few BOATs.

The maintenance liability of a RoW is not connected at all with the rights over it. Many routes have public rights to go over them but are privately mentioned, for example RT routes. There are many many RT routes in the Dales.

I haven’t spoken to the garage owner at Kettlewell but the attitude you speak of is not at all typical of the farmers, residents and MTBers I know around here. I don’t think it’s surprising that the only person you quote as liking offroaders is a guy whose spends all day on Sunday selling petrol to tourists.

As for ‘bikes will be next’ – of course that’s an argument that you can never resolve either way. That said the government and the YDNP have consistently supported bikes, pumped money into cycling routes and cycling generally so much so that I don’t believe that argument at all.

C

The point here is ‘off road’

The fact that there’s nearly half a million K’s of tarmac is a moot point!

The Chap at the petrol station is just an example – you ever tried buying fuel off him?? Kettlewell has no legal lanes near there so get very little trail traffic.

In 15 years of trail riding I’ve only had 1 instance of a walker having issues with the trail we were on (Mastiles before it was closed). Yet on mtbs I’ve had quite a few run ins with Horse riders and ramblers – Gargrave, Malhamdale, Scar House, Harden Moor….

Of course the YDNP are going to promote cycling – its easier to get a grant for a new cycle lane then it is a footpath!

IMO its the parish councils who have way too much power when it comes to access. No user group is immune from being removed – Next thing you know Colonel Purple will move to the end of your fav run and then develop a dislike to the noise of your freehub.

4 of the ETRO’s in the dales were instigated by the Parish council, The emphasis being on the ‘E’ These were meant to be 12 months – nearly 5 years ago!!

NIMBYS

sorry – ranting

And in today’s paper, as you say, locals just love them.

http://www.cravenherald.co.uk/news/9481868.Quad_biker_drove_at_villager_in_green_lane_row/?ref=rss

It seems the incident was not just a spur of the moment but came about when locals pointed out that they were not allowed there. The guy says he goes green laning all the time. Nice to think we share the lanes with this sort of people. Doesn’t make me feel nervous or threatened at all!

I am afraid I know of several run-ins with green laners, most often when they are on the wrong lane or doing illigal damage to the surface of lanes

C

Such a load of toss being spewed on this. Green lanes are roads that were never tarmacced, bridleways and footpaths are rights of way that were opened up under right to roam, neither has anything to do with the other. For every kilometer of green lane there are twenty of bridleway and footpath, puts the whinging in context really.

Mountain bikers quite rightly ignore the restriction to bridleways – that’s how ramblers got their footpaths after all. Green lane bikers would love act the same, but the moment you have a number plate it gets a lot more perilous. It’s not being in the right or not that makes it easy or not.

The depressing thing is how everyone’s a rambler at heart. “Well I’m not doing any harm, but THEY shouldn’t be here…” A phrase I’ve seen used here is “jealous of those having more fun”. Quite.

You wait till the electric 4×4 and motorbike no NOISE.Is it a electric motorbike or a cycle all those juicy bridleways on a KTM/GASGAS/Beta etc bring it on.

Think the main problem is people don’t realise that 4x4s can drive on these Byways etc…

Back in the summer I went activly looking for off road ROWs to drive down for fun, never had any problems mind, and met quick a few walkers.

If you paste this grid ref into google and zoom in on the Satellite view you’ll see a BOAT that has been widened to 4 lanes by the 4×4 crowd on their way to drive the Gap in the Brecon Beacons
51.835141,-3.32602
It’s the same trail widening that you see with MTBs and walkers, but more so. So right or wrong, they cause more damage and are correspondly more unpopular.

I might also add that the ridgeway near me has had motorised vehicles banned for a few years now and it’s a much more pleasent place to ride and walk with the kids. So i’m happy that a few suffer restrictions so that that majority don’t have to wade through knee deep puddles.

It does look fun though and banning them is the thin end of the wedge

http://www.cravenherald.co.uk/news/9481868.Quad_biker_drove_at_villager_in_green_lane_row/?ref=rss

I was going to try to ride up Dacre Lane as part of an alternative route over to Settle. Perhaps not then…it’s a FP isn’t it?

I’m glad that I don’t want to ride on the same trails as petrol heads and that they don’t want to ride where I do either..

Chris – that is precisely the sort of behaviour that gets ALL parties backs up.

There is no place for it on any highway.

Idiots like that quad biker give all motorised users a bad name. He was in the wrong – apologise and move off. Mistakes are made, Man up and admit them!!

Closing lanes merely funnels use onto a decreasing number of alternative RoW.

With regards to widening – it happens, all users are guilty. Pockstones Moor was terrible for it due to one section. It was closed for a few months, the short section repaired and then reopened. All users happy.

Kettlewell has no legal lanes near there so get very little trail traffic

theres one up the road above troutbeck which leads on to a few others heading towards hawes

I ride Motorbikes and mountainbikes,

Firstly MX bikes are not allowed to ride green lanes

Trail Bikes are, providing they are Road registered, taxed and insured.

The problems came with the Ramblers Divide and conquer methodology and its been made worse for them as a result…..

Most of the People I knew who trailrode, dont do it any more, or if they do, its in a very different way now…….
Before you`d have a trailbike, tax it, insure it ride it on green lanes, the odd cheeky bridleway or lane that was in dispute over rights of way, but on the whole all legal and above board, some idiots, but you get that in all hobbies really.

Now the argument goes…..why bother having a legal, traceable road bike, or sticking to legal trails when you get so much grief over it anyway, with the risk of bike confiscation etc if caught.
Why not have a proper MX bike, which if you have to “make progress” out of there pretty sharpish is a far far better tool for the job, more fun, cheaper to buy, no tax, no insurance, no registration, so no tracability…..
People will give you hassle regardless so you may as well ride where you like…..

Not saying I completely agree with it, but I kind of understand its a case of “Be careful what you wish for”

To start with all the user groups were united in defence of the “rambliars” association and Gleam

Then gradually, they all split up because they really didnt understand that there was saftey in numbers, and didnt want to align themselves with 4×4`s or Motorcycles, when they were getting a hard time, they looked after themselves……

The TRF did warn that the Walkers (who have access to pretty much everything after right to roam) would not stop with 4x4s or Trail riders…… they`d be coming after Horses and MTBs next….. and lo and behold thats what is beginning to happen…

I’ll keep riding / driving / pedalling regardless, but I’ll just pick my time and place

Theres plenty of room for all of us to enjoy what we want, but the walkers want it all exclusively, regardless of the Impact they have on the ROW network (Which is far greater than that of any motorised traffic) look at the Trail armoring and repairs needed on walking trails, the time, money and effort expended on getting the materials up there, often needing Helicopter access for stone etc

But they ignore that impact, because it suits them too

+ another for Tiger

if your going to ban one then ban Everybody! (no one can Moan about anything then!

Oh Except having nothing to do and nowhere to go.

I am afraid I know of several run-ins with green laners

it takes two to tango you know & happens on perfectly legal routes too, mates reconed they got deliberately blocked by walkers almost every time they went for a ride down the Ridgeway (when it was legal to do so)

It’s all about being considerate and sharing . Groups like GLEAM are full of selfish wealthy NIMBYs ..however… the trail riding community as a whole has plenty of inconsiderate idiots who need complaining about.IME the TRF are a responsible organisation both in the way that they ride and the way they defend their right to ride the few remaing UCR’s and BOATS . I trail ride quietly but also relish the peace and tranquility of the countryside and do my utmost not to spoil other’s enjoyment.

Taka – aye forgot about that

+1 cr500dom

amen

cr500dom … ex Supermoto VD’er indeed

I just think it’s a fair size Island we live on, let’s not get too het up about a bunch of lads on bikes or 4x4s, at the end of the day they are pretty restricted already, they don’t do masses of damage, non of it’s permanent and we’ll all be okay tomorrow. Nobody gets stressed about a Farmer ploughing a field.

(I might add my natural state is an aversion to both bikes and cars, I don’t like them, they are noisy, slow, create ruts, massive puddles. basically they can cock right up my bike riding but it would be a bit selfish of me to get rid of them because I don’t like it. Not put up or shut up! Look at the bigger picture beyond my own selfishness and Live and let live. )

They are pretty restricted already, let’s not campaign to take way the little that is left. That just seems petty minded to me.

What if your a fatty or can’t walk or ride should you be excluded?

Yours a cyclist who has no love of vehicles on my trails.

Just to set a few things;

Electrically powered motor bikes will make no difference under regulations and the law. With the NERC Act 2006 Parliament inserted many changes in other extant acts too. That included amending all acts (including the Road Traffic Act) that had previously referred to ‘motorised vehicles’ to now state ‘mechanically propelled vehicles’. That will now group motor vehicles with steam powered, electrical and all suchlike vehicles to be treat the same.

Most modern trail bikes you see are not riding legally. If only because of the number plate as the The Road Vehicles (Display of Registration Marks) Regulations 2001 states the size of number plates, the size and the font of the text and at 5 (5)(a) that “number plates must be mounted vertically or, where that is not reasonably practicable, in a position as close to the vertical as is reasonably practicable”. It also states that they should be “easily readable” which includes keeping them clean. Now obviously it is important that all this is done so that other users of the route could note a number and record that should they believe it is driven/ridden in an inappropriate way.

The petrol station at Kettlewell is en-route for most offroaders who ‘do’ the southern Dales as they include, by necessity, Littondale and Cray in their circuit.

Using a motorbike on a bridleway is illegal. Riding a push bike on a footpath is not. There is a very clear distinction in legislation between ‘it is an offence to ……’ and ‘are [not] allowed to’

Klumpy – I still can’t accept that you argue ‘Green lanes are roads that were never tarmacced’ then will not accept that when totaling up the kilometres of routes open to ride, you do not include the ‘ordinary road network’. You can’t have it both ways!

I am still waiting to see any evidence whatsoever that the government wants to restrict the routes open to cyclists. In fact there is much evidence to the contrary. I don’t agree with much of what the CTC does but the NERC Act was lobbied through by the Green Lanes Protection Group that was an alliance including RA, GLEAM, CLA and the CTC amongst others – so the CTC thought it right to restrict the recording of any more ways for motors to record public motor rights (on green lanes).

The bottom line is that motor vehicles on green lanes are more and more seen as being inappropriate and slowly are being legislated off them. This is because of the damage they are perceived to do, the damage they are seen to do to the wider environment and the detrimental affect it is perceived to do to the experience of other (non-motorized) users. Mountain bikes are most definitely not!

C

ChrisE – in much the same way that mountain bikers don’t want to be restricted to roads & fireroads, & walkers don’t want to be restricted to pavements, believe it or not some motorists don’t want to be restricted to tarmac. 4 x 4 drivers & trail riders have already been subject to restriction of access to byways that were previously open to them.

Re: the number plates – are you aware that motorcycles do not have to have as large lettering as cars & if one has a 5 or 6 digit number (eg A12 XYZ) number then it is quite legal for you to have a pretty small plate.

I’m all in favour of enforcing existing laws & restrictions & maintaining routes to prevent damage, but please no further restrictions should be called for. Perhaps you should start looking at green lanes that are roads that have never been tarmaced over, it might brighten your outlook on the matter.

live in a National Park – we get lots of everything – MX, Trail Bikes, 4×4, MTB and squillions of walkers.

They all transgress on occasions, some days are worse than others.

Easiest thing would be to widen access rather than restrict, that dilutes the problem and dissipates the users.

There is a very active section of the RA that is moving against 4×4 and Trail/MX bikes. Very subtle shift in message recently from this to “wheeled traffic” adn that’s us. They cite too many “cheeky trails”, well done guys we are now being put into the same cohort as 4×4 and Trail/MX bikes.

I will be very upset if I lose hte ability to hit any number of bridleways and ride right from my front door. It’s why I moved here.

Consideration and a bit of thought is all that’s required.

At the risk of being boring, read the regulations. Motorcycle number plate text must be 64mm high, (cars normally 79mm). 64 is massive and easily readable if clean, mounted vertically and is ridden within the TRF code of conduct (ie 25mph max, on the clearest straightest way, slower on less safe routes (ha ha))

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2001/561/made

The only argument I hear is MTBs do damage, walkers have paths repaired by helicopters, walkers drive cars into the National Park, bla blah. That’s not really an argument why allowing offroad bikes and 4x4s on green lanes is a good thing. Has anyone got a standalone argument as to why allowing motors to use green lanes, for recreation is good for the rest of the population?

C

Chris – your attitude just gets me down.

Why is walking in the hills, mtbing, cycling in general any more beneficial to the population then walking to the shops. That is not an arguement. The only arguement against off road driving is erosion. The fact that they have illegal plates is moot – if the vehicle isn’t roadworthy it shouldn’t be on the road – end of.

Erosion is caused by all users – have you not seen the ground after any off road race – cycling / running / horse. I remember a conversation with a ROW officer a few years ago who hated mtbers. His point was that we leave ruts – ruts channel water – water erodes. Hard to argue against.

Well maintained and drained roads used sensibly do not erode.

Cyclists have no right to cycle on footpaths away from the road but only commit an offence where local by-laws or traffic regulation orders create such an offence. Cyclists can ride on bridleways, but not on countryside footpaths.

you’re wrong – (although the work of art that is NERC seems to ignore this.)

IMO the NERC act was work of lobbying factions against the minority. A absis of the reclassification was proving historical use – yet left the interested parties no time to research.

No one mentioned proof of banning mtbers (isn’t there a thread elsewhere on here ??) The point is that the act now makes it possible!!! – All it takes is one nervous NPA to get lobbied by the red sock brigade and NIMBYS and – bishbashboosh – you get a TRO.

Out of interest can someone educate me why some of our countryside enjoying community are known as “red socks” ..what’s the origin?

Has anyone got a standalone argument as to why allowing motors to use green lanes, for recreation is good for the rest of the population?

In what way is ****** for recreation good for the rest of the population?

****** – insert a hobby or pastime of your choice

Out of interest can someone educate me why some of our countryside enjoying community are known as “red socks” ..what’s the origin?

Lots of people enjoying the countryside while wearing red socks,.

HTH.

Cyclists have no right to cycle on footpaths away from the road but only commit an offence where local by-laws or traffic regulation orders create such an offence. Cyclists can ride on bridleways, but not on countryside footpaths.

I have never said that (neither has anyone else, I have just text searched the thread), what rubbish!

You are right though, NERC was driven though by a huge majority who thought it as right. That’s how democracy works. There was even an amendment to have no exempt claims (rather than the cut-off date of 19 Jan 2005) however that was defeated. It would not normally have been defeated but the government had retained a large amount of Lords due to fear of being turned over on the ID cards debate later that evening so the government whips trooped through on division at the bell that night.

No exempt claims would have negated the need for Winchester which had a huge effect on BOAT claims in which the TRF dropped a massive clanger. As applicants in the process, DEFRA invited in the two people, one a TRF member and the other a senior TRF RoW exec to be named on the action as interested parties. As such they would have no liability for costs but crucially would (later) be able to appeal Winchester. The first didn’t reply but the latter sent a stupid sarcastic letter back going on about what a waste of paper the case would be. That decision cost them the right to appeal. Ever since the TRF have never told the members that and indeed bent the truth whn they tell members there was no way they could have appealed it. What they meant was there was no way because they lost that by their own choice!!

I am not a betting man (much too much a Yorkshireman for that!) but I would bet that in less than 10 years recreational motoring (offroading) in National Parks will be banned on all unsurfaced routes, on the grounds that it is not compatible with the statutory purposes of the Parks, leaving such routes open only to walkers, horses, cyclists and horse-drawn carts. Watch this space!

Incidentally did you see the Peak District Green Lanes Alliance was formed late last year and they seem to be making huge strides.

C

haters gonna hate

Just confirms to me my fears that some MTBsrs are as selfish today as the ramblers were in the past.

This forum needs a block list or a stackexchange style reputation system so commentards get downvotes and lose the ability to spout rhetoric

In the interests of balance for anti green lane activities people could visit LARA GB

Not saying I agree with everything they say – they have an agenda to push as much as GLEAM.

Incidentally did you see the Peak District Green Lanes Alliance was formed late last year and they seem to be making huge strides.

Will look this up, we have green lanes all round us and I live in the Peak. NIMBYS – often people who have moved into the area – have already managed to close access to two popular trails for MX/Trials/4X4 but that did not stop several MX/Trials bikes passing me on both of them last week.

The biggest cause of erosion round here is walkers – just take a peek at the footpaths up and around Mam Tor, Kinder, Win Hill, etc – decades of being tramped by the vibram soled jack boot of the Ramblers Association membership!

And breath…

Roger http://pdgla.org.uk/about-the-alliance/

Nick, it’s somewhat ironic that you think people who want to campaign for green lanes to be free only for walker, cycles and horses should be ‘marked down’ and loose the ability to post!

C

did you see the Peak District Green Lanes Alliance was formed late last year

presume that was the lot on the TV documentary. What a bunch of nimbys they are lead by the head drama queen who busts into tears cos she can’t have her own way and her husband who stands in the middle of the “road” and attempts to stop riders ALA policeman style . whotf does he think he is? then goes on to phone the police when the riders pass his wife who is also obstructing the route and is in the way.They came across as narrow minded bored and spoilt retirees whose egos are dwindling and are desperate for a boost.

No, PDGLA is headed by Dr Karen Hinkley, Prof Mark Everard & Roy Hattersley (the ex dep leader of the Labour Party). There are a number of MTBers are members too but obviously the more MTBers the better to keep a strong voice.

C

they are members of the alliance though no?

Nick, it’s somewhat ironic that you think people who want to campaign for green lanes to be free only for walker, cycles and horses should be ‘marked down’ and loose the ability to post!

A stack exchange style system wouldn’t allow an individual to prevent others posting. It would be the community based on the stuff said by the originator. So no, not ironic. more access for everyone on the trails IMO

access for EVERYONE! cos we dont Own this world (although some of us Think we do)

legal yes, right?

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL_M4NCfFxk[/video]

rogerthecat – Member
….
There is a very active section of the RA that is moving against 4×4 and Trail/MX bikes. Very subtle shift in message recently from this to “wheeled traffic” adn that’s us. They cite too many “cheeky trails”, well done guys we are now being put into the same cohort as 4×4 and Trail/MX bikes

yes but that isn’t RA policy – but if those that ride MTB choose to align with motorised offroaders and maintain the disorganised (politically speaking) stance then those walkers with more extreme opinions will win through

RA policy (i believe) i addded the bold bit

The Ramblers view is that motorised use of rights of way, for sport, is rarely appropriate and that vulnerable users – pedestrians, cyclists, equestrians and horse and carriage drivers – should be able to enjoy the rights of way network away from as much motor traffic as possible

http://www.ramblers.org.uk/rights_of_way/knowledge_portal/vehicles_in_the_countryside.htm