There was a bit of interest in the Pinion gearbox on STW a while ago.
I don’t think there was a belt drive version at that time though.
There is now, and it looks good to me.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.553411264678293.127972.295414093811346&type=1

Looks interesting, but i cant see the gearbox lasting a UK winter. I doubt it will be really waterproof. Any small ingress of muddy water will just turn to grinding paste inside – thats going to cost a bit more than a rear casette and mech.

I still think gearbox’s are a solution that are still looking for a problem on mountain bikes.

Compare weight and cost and ease of maintanence and I dont see why you would want a gearbox.

Rocks to Rear Mechs would be the problem, with losing the chain an added irritant?

The solution might not be perfect yet, but I hope that they get there soon…

A friend of mine has just picked up one of the gear boxes and its mounting frame to build his own 650b HT/rigid bike.

I like the principle but as above only time will tell to see how well sealed it is.

Theres no reason why the gearbox can’t be weather proof though,the sooner manufacturers take on board this system the better, bashing mechs and hangars is always a problem up here in the lakes,and it will be a big step forwards being able to ride through certain trails without the worry of damaging a traditional transmission system.

Longevity can only be proven by time but Rohloff set the gold standard for this. In normal use Rohloff hubs trouble free whatever the conditions. They don’t like being completely submerged in water on a regular basis as Simon Barnes of this parish discovered BUT it was still only the bearings that failed in his case and not the gearing itself. Not many of us frequently subject our bikes to that sort of treatment.

Suspect Pinion will be the same – wet conditions won’t be a problem. Riding through rivers on a regular basis will mean frequent oil changes.

Again based on experience of Rohloff, maintenance drops to near zero, consumable costs much much less (high end cassette prices are horrific when you consider they’re a consumable) and the gearing works consistently in all conditions and over time.

With a Pinion the weight is low, central and suspended. My Pinion AC 26 is coming in at just about the same weight as my Rohloff equipped AC – just over 15kg/33lbs in an XL size. I don’t think that’s a problem for an all day, all mountain 150mm travel bike.

dupe. (thought the forum didn’t let that happen). Heres a pic then –

Don’t think these systems will ever take off till they get rid of the crappy gripshift and get a trigger shifter on there. Alfine showed that this is possible.

Alfine showed this is possible….at the expense of making the shifting much less reliable. A lot of the problems people have with Alfine 11 are related to cable tension/setup.

Pull/pull cabling isn’t dependent on cable tension/smooth running and leaves the indexing in the hub/box. Much better technical solution. Nothing hanging from the bars is neater and you can grab a handful of gears in one go. You might not like it but theres nothing crappy about it.

My Pinion AC

I have about 250 miles on mine now.

Twist grip shift is very easy to use.

I’ve said it before & I’ll say it again.

Effi-gear is the way forward.

They do 7 & 9 speed boxes WITH a trigger shifter

I’ve not used gripshifts since I was 10 or so. I imagine it would be quite difficult to shift while keeping your finger on the brake lever? Or is it possible to twist it with just your thumb?

I do really like the idea of a gearbox and like many others I’m hoping it will take off sometime soon.

I like this but i get the feeling its quite horrendously expensive right?

I think about the same cost as full price xtr

Its not too bad,it somes with everything needed except a chain and single speed spacer kit.

So works out about the same as X0 or xtr.

I quite fancy an Argon CC 28er with pinion, belt drive and Lefty.

Just me, then?

Andy

Don’t think these systems will ever take off till they get rid of the crappy gripshift and get a trigger shifter on there. Alfine showed that this is possible.

There have been prototype Rohloff trigger shifters – I’ve even dabbled with it. But they all go from a simple system with one moving part to a very complicated system with bits that stick out to break in a crash.

On my Rohloff bike, if I go around a corner and suddenly need to go from gear 9 to gear 2, it’s a very quick twist. With triggers, it’d be push-push-push-push…

I imagine it would be quite difficult to shift while keeping your finger on the brake lever?

I can’t say that i’ve ever found that to be a problem. Shifting technique changes because you can shift, in fact it’s better to shift, when you’re not pedalling. On conventional gears you have to predict which gear you’re going to want to be in when you come out of a corner and shift and brake before you reach the start of the section.

On a ‘box you either drop a few gears as you finish braking or as you come out of the corner before you start pedalling. If you don’t know what’s on the other side (unexpected rise?) works much better.

works out about the same as X0 or xtr.

but much cheaper in the long run

I quite fancy an Argon CC 28er with pinion, belt drive and Lefty.

No, me too. Maybe 650, maybe 29 (so 28 it is then….)

I’ve not used gripshifts since I was 10 or so. I imagine it would be quite difficult to shift while keeping your finger on the brake lever? Or is it possible to twist it with just your thumb?

Your thinking in terms of normal gears, where you have to shift in advance of a hill. With hub gears you can dump all the gears you want without turing a pedal, so off the brake, full hand of gears and pedal up. Tho you can quite easily shift with gripshift while breaking if you still feel the need.

Loving those ACs.

I still think gearbox’s are a solution that are still looking for a problem on mountain bikes.

Depends on the riding you do. I’m on a SS mainly but when I need / want gears for longer or loaded trips, if it’s muddy it doesn’t take long for me to start cursing crappy mechs : ) I use XT 9spd with a 6-spd cut down cassette to get rid of the most problematic small cogs and keep the chainline narrow and still find the mech is always the weak point.
But gearboxes limit my frame choice so I’m not convinced – a slimmed-down 7-spd wide-range rohloff would be preferable.

a slimmed-down 7-spd wide-range rohloff would be preferable.

Based on the Pinion/Nicolai Gearboxes/Alfine hubs I think the problem is that, whilst it potentially reduces the cost, it doesn’t take much, if anything, off the weight.

I still think gearbox’s are a solution that are still looking for a problem on mountain bikes.

On the contrary: The existing rear mech system is inherently floored, because it is vulnerable to knocks and dirt. Therefore, the sooner it is replaced by a gearbox system, the better.

How does the Pinion setup at the top compare to 11sp Alfine in terms of cost, range and weight?

I´d love a Pinion Helius AC but they´re just too expensive.
I don´t think I can justify 4500€ for the frame + shock but I am tempted.
Probably just as well there´s none around where I live to test ride.

it doesn’t take much, if anything, off the weight.

Not too fussed about that, more the choice of frames / retro-fit and keeping it efficient by not trying to have too wide a range of gears. Have Nicolai ever experimented with the honda-style boxed mech?

What’s the durability like if you occasionally bang your BB on trunks etc?

And how does the weight make the bike feel? Rohloff made mine feel quite tail-heavy, and a bit sluggish when changing direction; so would be curious to know about the Pinion.

if it’s muddy it doesn’t take long for me to start cursing crappy mechs

Then it’s your spannering skills that are questionable. In 15 years of Somme like winters in the Chilterns, I can honestly say that I’ve had one or maybe two occasions that mechs and cassettes have let me down, and in all that time I’ve never damaged one either (I know it happens but it’s way less common that forums would lead one to believe) I’m with Trimix, I’m all for options and different ways of doing stuff, but these systems are a long way away from taking over from mechs. (simple, home serviceable, long lasting)

It’s always a compromise, but for me a gearbox at the bottom bracket is the best place to concentrate the weight, particularly on a full suss, keeping unsprung weight down.

Running costs, ie regular transmission replacement, must be better in the long term & not having a vunerable dangly bit, oooeer!, hanging at rock level is a definite advantage.

What we need is a “standard” mounting system to allow a bit of swapping of frames and boxes, then it will get really interesting.

Not too fussed about that, more the choice of frames / retro-fit and keeping it efficient by not trying to have too wide a range of gears. Have Nicolai ever experimented with the honda-style boxed mech?

Retrofit isn’t ever going to be a solution – it’s just not practical. Nicolai’s idea of a standard BB mount that would allow alternate ‘boxes to be used was a good one but hasn’t been adopted by either of the other ‘box manufacturers I’m aware of which is a shame.

Both Rohloff and Pinion work, I think, by having one set of gears and a reducer (Rohloff 2×7, Pinion 2×9 presumably) so you can halve the number of gears with no significant weight saving. I don’t see the attraction of a mech in a box as then you’re using more fragile gears – its the full spur gears on Pinion and rohloff that gives the potential for really long life. Why of interest?

And how does the weight make the bike feel?

Balance point on the Pinion AC is bang on central. Unsprung mass less than anything other than a singlespeed (mech and cassette no longer on the back wheel).

Your thinking in terms of normal gears, where you have to shift in advance of a hill. With hub gears you can dump all the gears you want without turing a pedal, so off the brake, full hand of gears and pedal up. Tho you can quite easily shift with gripshift while breaking if you still feel the need.

I imagine I’d still prefer to be able to shift without getting off the brakes. Not really a huge problem though I guess – I didn’t die once when I still shifted up using the “brake finger” after all, and gripshifts do make sense when you have 18 gears (or something like that?) to go through.

I’ve had enough of derailleurs for crap weather use, I’m perfectly capable of keeping it running fine but I’m fed up with the time spent cleaning and fettling. With an Alfine my chain doesn’t pickup as much crud to start with and is a lot easier and quicker to clean, and the chain\ring\cog lasts a lot longer. Quite nice having a next to silent bike when you’re riding too. It could do with it being lighter (but I could do with being 2 stone lighter) and loosing the drag at very low speeds, i’m still the limiting factor on the bike either way.

I don’t think any of the solutions are there just yet but it just needs time and the early adopters to buy it and fund the next step of development. I think the gearbox will get there one day, it just doesn’t have enough people putting the time and money into it. The limiting factor is\will be the big players not being interested as it’s not a very consumable product if it works properly and getting the big bike brands on board wont be easy. It will probably just be another option as it is now.

I’m curious as to where derailleur setups will go as well to be honest, 1×11 or 12 should be enough for anyone, they’ll push electronic, and obviously lower and lower weights. Then what?

Enough rambling…

Then it’s your spannering skills that are questionable. In 15 years of Somme like winters in the Chilterns,

Maybe not.. a mech introduces potential issues when it’s filthy and no mechanic can prevent that. I ride in the Chilterns, I’ve only ever wrecked mechs hitting them on things but shifting that’s compromised by a packed-out cassette and a mech full of clag, chain-sucking due to a dry or dirty chain etc is unavoidable at times. I’d blame trying to ride the amount of miles in one go in poor conditions that I tend to do when the gears go on, rather than the mechanic skills. I agree that the other options aren’t ideal either, but only a different set of compromises. I’d ditch mechs as soon as an IGH I liked came up.

Retrofit isn’t ever going to be a solution – it’s just not practical.

It’s the only solution if you want a wheel and shifter to go on a bike that may have mechs or SS at other times, that’s all. I like adaptable bikes and having a Pinion or other gearbox built into the frame is a bit specific – I love the idea though, the Nicolais above look great, I just don’t have a use for it personally.
I’m interested in the mech in a box as I don’t like the softness/lack of drive efficiency feel of IGHs, I know the actual losses are small but they feel sluggish to me, used them a fair bit but not a big fan overall. Mechs and chains are very direct feeling, the only real drawback of current gears are the location. Putting them into a honda-style box makes it more durable anyway, but frame-specific again. So I come back to a simplified rohloff-quality 5 or 7spd that doesn’t exist, or SS.. )

In answer to a couple of points above;

I don’t find the weight distribution with a Rohloff a problem at all.
I can start a ride with 1.5kg of water on the seat and down tubes and I honestly don’t notice any difference in the bikes handling as it disappears and the CoG moves rearwards over three hours.
Some people say they can, so a BB mounted gearbox is better than a Rohloff in that respect.

I like to swap between Rohloff and SS on one bike. I wouldn’t be able to do that with a gearbox.

Twist shift is brilliant. It’s all I rode for a few years, until recently buying a tandem with derailleurs. You don’t realise how useful it is being able to shift as many gears as you want in one go while stationary until you can’t do it any more.

I don’t see why waterproofing should be a problem. My Land Rover is rated for 500mm fording depth, which is above the level of the gearbox and axles. I don’t change the oil every time I ford it.

It would be good if the mounting was standard between manufacturers. Have Pinion patented it, or could anyone make a gearbox to fit a Pinion frame ?

What’s the difference in price between a Nicolai Pinion frame and the equivalent non-Pinion frame ?

MTG, one point in the Pinion’s favour that you and I aren’t concerned by is unsprung weight – for a susser, score 1 to the gearbox over an IHG.

No, me too. Maybe 650, maybe 29 (so 28 it is then….)

Oh the hazards of posting from a phone 😛

Simon – did you have any luck sourcing a 142x12mm single speed hub in the end?

Andy

AC is 135 not 142mm. In the end I decided to go for a standard dished rear wheel – only singlespeed cassette rears I found seemed to be heavier than the regular wheels. Plus running a regular wheel if you do trash one away from home it’s easy to swap out for another.

Weight balance is more noticable on a full sus which tend to be a bit back heavy anyway. Rohloff on a hardtail balances up the fork.

I imagine I’d still prefer to be able to shift without getting off the brakes.

Has no one else spotted the flaw in this statement?

You can’t shift a normal mech/cassette whilst braking, unless for some strange reason you’re pedaling and braking at the same time, in which case I’d suggest your not braking as hard as you could be (i.e. your weights not too far back to pedal) and could have shifted first and braked later. Or seeing as you don’t need to pedal to shift a gearbox, shifted mid corner once the braking was dealt with.

Has no one else spotted the flaw in this statement?

No, not just you, but it’s common complaint of those who think grip shift unridable but haven’t actually tried it for any length of time.