Not sure if covered here in light of recent summer tragedies???
(Poor internet connectivity this month 🙁 )

As someone who grew up on the coast; currents, tides, weather and (hopefully) being able to read them have been ingrained. Even so, I know the risks, know that they’re still there irrespective of my knowledge / respect and that they can bite me or my kids at any time.

Recent events are dreadful, but am I alone in my bewilderment at the general media / public / expert response?
Yes to RNLI lifeguards on popular beaches, yes to good education and advice, but please keep the evermorerulesandbyelaws approach for the local council park…

Agreed, the sea is a cruel and harsh mistress. I am well aware of the dangers at my local beach and make my own risk assessment before I go in. I do not want it closed because cretins camp under crumbling chalk cliffs or put their kids on an inflatable in a howling offshore breeze, better education and hard hitting public service broadcasts.

from what I’ve read so far it might appear that the 5 unfortunate chaps in camber this week could not swim at all. The conditions were good, no rip but a fast moving tide and soggy sand making walking difficult

This is an area where I really do hope we don’t have to walk at the pace of the slowest person and bring in rules to save idiots from themselves. Idiots is maybe a bit harsh a term – ignorance of the danger they were putting themselves in given their capabilities seems to be a common cause.

from what I’ve read so far it might appear that the 5 unfortunate chaps in camber this week could not swim at all. The conditions were good, no rip but a fast moving tide and soggy sand making walking difficult

Sh!t, that’s dreadful 🙁

it might appear that the 5 unfortunate chaps in camber this week could not swim at all

According to the brother of one they could all swim. I have no idea if that’s true or speculation.

Given all the other reports I’ve seen of the conditions, it seems very strange for them to drown if they could swim. It seems to be being blamed on the tide coming in faster than expected and on sand bars – those factors would simply result in people becoming unexpectedly out of their depth, something which a competent swimmer wouldn’t have an issue with.

There seems to be a suggestion that the beach should be closed – do they mean the whole 7 mile length of it, or just the bit where these poor chaps drowned?

I’m not sure about the feasibility of closing the sea

I’m not sure about the feasibility of closing the sea

King C’nut demonstrated quite clearly that not even a King had that power!
It’s much the same at Burnham-on-Sea along to Brean, a six mile beach with the second highest tidal range in the world after the Bay of Fundy in Canada, at 11m/36ft, and the tide can recede up to 1.5 miles, leaving vast mudflats.
There are signs everywhere warning of soft sand and mud, danger of sinking, but still the hovercraft and rescue teams get called out between two to three hundred times a year, mostly to beach rescues, because some ignorant emmet has ignored the signs and tried to walk out to the sea; the tide comes in at 3mph…
Then there are the cocks who drive their cars onto the mud, and get upset when it gets stuck and the tide covers it.
There’s continued calls for more to be done, but you just can’t legislate for ignorance and gross stupidity!
Adults I say let Darwin sort it out, but it’s heartbreaking when a five year old girl gets stuck and drowns. 🙁
That’s why they now have two hovercraft.

Sorry but if the tide goes out 1.5miles, and takes roughly 6 hours to come back in, then I make that 0.25mph, not 3mph???

It is if the gradient of the beach is even and constant. Sandbars, undulations and channels mean that the speed is variable and alarmingly fast in places.

Also the rate the tide comes in is not constant. In the RNLI we use the rule of twelfths which is a good approximation:

First hour 1/12th of the height
Second hour 2/12ths
Third hour 3/12ths
Fourth hour 3/12ths
Fifth hour 2/12ths
Sixth hour 1/12th

Because the change is gradual, lay people may not notice that the speed the tide has coming in has tripled.

Reports this morning are they they got stuck in quicksand, so their ability to swim or not is kind of beside the point. Desperately sad.

Agent007, i haven’t checked the maths but the tide does not move linearly, it follows a roughly sinusoidal rate, with the flow at mid tide being about 3x the flow 1h after it turns (that is a simplification as local effects mean it’s not always as neat as that).

as morphio said above

the beach at Berrow,Brean and Weston has a gradient that changes and in parts is almost flat and combined with the rule of 12ths means that at times the tide moves at quite a pace . The prevailing onshore wind can increase this rate. Fortunately sandbars and channels do not form due to the underlying mud and clay.

As the count stated although there are many signs every year people try to walk to the sea and get stuck in the mud and several people drive their cars into the mud, this has been mostly stopped at WSM as the cars are contained further up the beach.

Sorry but if the tide goes out 1.5miles, and takes roughly 6 hours to come back in, then I make that 0.25mph, not 3mph???

And therein lies the problem. Local says what happens, someone from outside ‘knows better’ and ends up with a ride in the big yellow taxi or an orange boat, if they’re lucky.

Big signs at the entrances with bullet point warnings and a chronological history of the deaths that have happened over the years, then let Darwinism takes its course.

Probably should have at least one defined and flagged area though with one hovercraft (for areas with quicksand) around. If you are in trouble outside the defined area, then you will be liable for rescue fees.

The problem at Camber is a sand bar with a channel that runs between it and the top of the beach which is about 1-1.5m deeper than the top of the sand bar.

The sand bars move about and the channel seems quite deep at the moment which I believe is down to the recently completed coastal defence work personally.

Unfortunately standing on one the bars with a rising tide at mid flow you would have to swim to get back to the beach if the water was up to your thighs.

There are signs in place warning of the dangers, but he beach does get a lot of visiters who are really not used to being by/ in the sea and lots of non English speakers.

Its my favourite windsurf beach so really hope there isn’t some knee jerk reaction.

It is a tragic event, and I do not aim to suggest my comments reflect what happened.

It is personal responsibility time in my view.

Lifeguards *can* help at busy places, when something unravels, but at the end of the day we need to get people to a place where they are able to make decisions themselves.

I think we have a lot of folk now ‘insulated’ from so much risk, they are not used to making decisions or thinking about it. You have to be exposed to risk to be able to then learn and apply it in all sorts of situations.

Lots of reasons why we are here, with many young people and adults de-skilled in such things.

I’m even writing about such things at the moment…
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/calculating-risks-matt-robinson?trk=prof-post

Beautiful place Camber, you can see why folks go down there to enjoy it.

But, as with all beaches, they are to be enjoyed with a little caution and understanding of the area and conditions.

Sad as this is, tragic even, but this does send out a message that beaches are places to be enjoyed and taken with caution.

Enjoy them, Summer is still here on the South Coast.

Wholeheartedly agreed Matt. There is no coincidence that the folk who do dangerous things for a hobby/living and see their pension are also some of the most risk adverse in society too. The ability to assess the risk (including identifying unknowns) and compare to your own ability is a pretty key life skill.

The blame reaction and anger of the family that was reported in the news yesterday is perfectly understandable when it’s so raw but I hope in time they can see that their loved ones were entirely contributory.

In certain sea conditions, the ability to swim is pretty irrelevant.

I was initially surprised when doing my offshore survival that they didn’t seem bothered about the amount of non swimmers. It was quickly an succinctly explained to me that this was way down the list of requirements if yer chopper ends up in the salty on a dark, cold winter morning.

I’ve lived on the coast all my life, haven’t a clue about reading tides etc, but I have a healthy respect of the sea, that prevents me from doing something daft, hopefully.

Sometimes a group, especially of teenage boys or young men they will take risks or ignore dangers that they would never do alone. I understand the point people are making about personal responsibility and it’s speculation I know but each may individually have been uneasy about what they were doing but went along with the group.

My daughter is generally someone very aware of dangers, it won’t stop her doing things but she acts accordingly. 3 years ago she was on the beach at Newhaven in very rough weather, the beach was busy though, plenty of people were enjoying it safely. Her friend Dylan who was next to her was just a little closer to the sea. A wave hit them knocking her onto the beach and taking him into the water. His body has never been found and she watched him drown in front of her. I think had she been alone she probably would have been a bit further from the waters edge and maybe it would have been the same for him. As well as personal responsibility we need to teach our kids that the judgements they make alone are the same ones they should make when they are with others.

Unfortunately, the people that are likely to get in to trouble on the coast, are likely to get in to trouble in the mountains. The sort that just wear shorts and T-shirt while going up a mountain on a sunny day, then get caught out by the weather.

Like you say Matt, I think they are not exposed to what mother nature can do, as they are rarely immersed in conditions other than nice calm and sunny, where ever that may be.

It was quickly an succinctly explained to me that this was way down the list of requirements if yer chopper ends up in the salty on a dark, cold winter morning.

With respect that is an incredibly different scenario. When in trouble at the coast you to tend not to have an immersion suit, life jacket, life raft and a swim so far no one is going to make it to land. Being able to swim in water just off a beech is more than a little useful.

With respect that is an incredibly different scenario. When in trouble at the coast you to tend not to have an immersion suit, life jacket, life raft and a swim so far no one is going to make it to land. Being able to swim in water just off a beech is more than a little useful.

Agreed, although once you are in difficulty and start panicking, you’d be as well in the middle of the north sea, even if you’re only a few metres from safety.

Perhaps not my best analogy!

The blame reaction and anger of the family that was reported in the news yesterday is perfectly understandable when it’s so raw but I hope in time they can see that their loved ones were entirely contributory.

On the radio on Monday they were talking about a tragic incident at the weekend where people died after children were paddling in the water at a red-flagged beach. Everyone was at pains to continuously make the point “no-one was to blame” although at one point the RNLI chap did gently clarify (as the host didn’t seem aware of this) that red flags mean stay out of the water completely, not “don’t swim but paddling ok”. Maybe in this case more signs, etc would have saved lives? Certainly more education needed. Although they also made the point on the radio show that when people are in “holiday mode” all common sense can go out the window.

This is what I’m talking about

The family of one of the five men who died at Camber Sands have spoken of their anger that the beach was not shut after another death there last month.

Mr Ravi’s sister Mayura, 17, said the family felt anger that the stretch of beach where they died had not been blocked off following Mr Da Cruz’s death last month.

Sometimes a group, especially of teenage boys or young men they will take risks or ignore dangers that they would never do alone.

Teenagers are biologically hard wired to take risks. They *have* to do it. If they don’t take ‘positive’ risks, they will take *any* risks. Research suggests the risks they then end up taking are ill considered and health harmful (drugs, alchohol, sex, massive physical risk with no skill etc).

The blame reaction and anger of the family that was reported in the news yesterday is perfectly understandable when it’s so raw but I hope in time they can see that their loved ones were entirely contributory.

I agree, and the problem being the press are happy to pedal this more than the tragedy of it all, or a piece on seeing some of the risks at a beach.

This is what I’m talking about

Yup, I thought they were a bit over the top. It’s not a lifeguarded beach, only beach patrol. ISTM that they did their job – got the police, coastguard etc.

The sea is a dangerous place, even when it looks benign. Unfortunately even with the deaths last month people still go into the sea unprepared.

Know the dangers, read the signage, and think very carefully before swimming on an un-lifeguarded beach.

The family of one of the five men who died at Camber Sands have spoken of their anger that the beach was not shut after another death there last month.

With this argument, every road in the UK should now be shut after any deaths from car accidents.

This is the raw emotion coming out of family however.

Its down to people taking responsibility for their own actions, something that this H&S mad world actually encourages (to some degree) people not to do.

However, the world has changed.

Youtube makes it easy for people to see people having fun in the sea, so people want a bit of it, in years gone by they might not have thought about it.

Cheap wet suits/body boards etc make the sea much more accessible than it used to be.

I was at my local beach, it has horrific 6ft+ shore dump onto cobbles in places at high tide when the surf is good. As a local I know where to get out of the sea(it’s still a little tricky but timing is everything).

A few years ago a couple of new teenagers turned up on a big day. They both chose to exit the sea at the wrong spot, one got lucky but the second got sucked into the dump by his board and leash. We stood on the beach about 6ft from him completely unable to help as he got repeatedly pounded by the waves into the stones. Thankfully there was a lull and we dragged the now semi concious teenager out. We got him back to the car park where he came too and he was covered in cuts, chipped his front teeth and his board was wrecked but at least he was still alive.

Bloody horrible watching someone get a pounding and knowing you’re powerless to help.

There has been an online for lifeguards at Camber for the last month. It’s been suggested that the car parking charges could cover the cost.

https://www.change.org/p/get-lifeguards-at-camber-sands-beach-during-summer

Rother District Council have now announced that there will be lifeguards at Camber this bank holiday.

How many know what the red flags mean? There are probably signs about saying what they mean but some people don’t read signs. If you travel a long way to a beach then I suppose some will just want to go in anyway.

Can’t help those types really – so do we let them take their risks?

Sorry but if the tide goes out 1.5miles, and takes roughly 6 hours to come back in, then I make that 0.25mph, not 3mph???

It wouldn’t take 6 hours to just soak the beach though, it would take 6 hours to rise up to 11 metres – you’d be completely out of your depth in places only 90 minutes after the tide started to turn. By the time the water reached the top of your legs you’d have a very hard time out running it.

Teenagers are biologically hard wired to take risks

Yes I understand that, my point is that in a group peer pressure can make people take risks they’d never take alone.
My daughters friend decided he’d take the risk of paddling in the sea, had there been no one there to watch him take the risk I’m not sure he would have done it.
I’ve always tried to step back if I see my kids doing something where if it goes wrong it’s going to hurt but basically you’ll be fine and to step in if the consequences are going to be serious. Not always easy of course.

I agree with you avdave – peer pressure can increase risk taking.

However, my work and others research says that peer pressure and herd mentality can be turned to work in favour – making good decisions.

I have worked on so many DofE trips, teenage days out on rivers/bikes/hills etc, and I have seen large groups stand up and make good decisions – but only where a couple of the group or more have had opportunity to experience risk.

This is a really practical thing. When do we allow our children out to places like parks to play unsupervised? When do we allow them to journey on their own? When do we allow them to climb trees?

If we wait too long, they are 18 years old, leaving home and suddenly have to make *big* judgements and decisions for themselves….

No right or wrong here, just a feeling I have as parent (and someone involved in education) that I have to do this, even though it is scary.

If we wait too long, they are 18 years old, leaving home and suddenly have to make *big* judgements and decisions for themselves….

I completely agree with this H&S has reduced exposure to risk, and also passed personal exposure of risk on to someone else.

H&S has reduced exposure to risk,

Let us be clear – ‘H&S’ has not. Certainly the HSE has not.

The interpretation of ‘H&S’, the application of practices designed for offshore oil rig operations to education (as an example we are arguing through at the moment) and the fear of litigation has had an impact.

HSE say ‘risk is good in education’ and ‘get out and do it’….I even have them speaking at my conference on striking a balance when managing risk in education in a few weeks about this.