Scary repair bill prospects with almost any car on the market today – is there no company or market for a basic car thAt is easy to work on ?

Key things i guess are could it be made safe. ? Could it pass emissions ?

I drive a 1980s land rover and ill quite happily replace bits on it as they are easy to access an no electronic systems to diagnose ! – surely a car designed on that premise would work well no ? I cant help but think cars today are largely disposable with an 5-10 year planned obscelecence . Smart move from the builders really But **** me off no end really. Anything breaks and the labour cost alone writes off the car near enough !

A car to me is somewhere i try to spend as little time as possible so electronic gadgets and heated everything are not important to me .

Had a good look at some old austins at a rally over the west coast and frankly in me eyes cars have not evolved for the better !

Thoughts ? Am i just stuck in the 1950s ?

Renault Twingos are basic.
No electric gadgets.
Cam chain instead of belt.
Bolt on wings.
A basic simple economic car.

A bit like my old fave the Renault 4.

Thoughts ? Am i just stuck in the 1950s ?

Yes,

Google the cost of a basic fault code reader, then Google the cost of a carb ballancing kit? Or a strobe for distributor timing etc.

Engines havent changed that much, if you can change a cambelt on a 1950’s car (largely impossible seeing as they’ll probably not be overhead cam, but thats not the point I’m making) then you can do it on a modern car.

Not being able to diagnose problems is a bit of a mystery to me, the engines are basicly the same as they were 50 years ago, the same fault will still make the same noise/symptoms, just the modern car you can plug it into a reader and it’ll give you even more details of the fault!

Even if the cars didn’t have electric windows/auto lights/auto wipers/climate control etc. they still have to pass the strict emissions tests.
And there’s no way they can do that without complex electronics.

I seem to remember a poster in a Ford dealership stating that an original Escort put out the same level of pollutants as 10 Focus’.

Touch Wood – My car has had no electrical faults so far. I’ve had a climate control compressor fail, a wheel bearing and a turbo boost pipe fail – all mechanical components, although there’s probably some electronics in the compressor I guess.
And that’s an 8 yr old car with 165k miles on it.

Get a basic 1.0 Yaris and enter the 21st centuary – yes it has engine electronics, but that means it doesn’t drink juice like a Landy, but pretty much everything else is mechanical and can be taken apart/put back together with a metric combination spanner set. My wife had one, and despite us joking that is seemed to powered by an elastic band it cost ****-all to run, sailed though MOT year-after-year, was easy to work on when consumables needed replacing and is mechanically very well thought out. Sold it to a friend when we had kinds and it’s still trundling along.

Yes and No.

I drive a 2002 Ford Focus and a Lotus Seven inspired Kitcar. Neither is high on electronics and ‘info-tainment’ type stuff and that’s generally how I like it.

HOWEVER: I also get to drive Jaguars and Land Rovers during my work day and I find all the electronics and stuff quite nice to play with and I think they really add to the driving experience.

To sum up then; I think this stuff is great if someone else pays for the bills 😯 but I don’t have a car like that and I’m not sure I can afford one but they are great fun and they have definitely improved over the last 30 years.

trail_rat – Member
Had a good look at some old austins at a rally over the west coast and frankly in me eyes cars have not evolved for the better !

Cripes things aren’t that bad are they?

I seem to remember a poster in a Ford dealership stating that an original Escort put out the same level of pollutants as 10 Focus’.

Only 10 times better?

Off the top of my head that sounds an order of magnitue out, maybe more like 100? Unless we’re talking the last of the Escorts and the first of the Focus’ (i.e. Zetec to Duratech engines)?

Tinas i see what you mean but example i wanted to change power steering pump on my partner . Meant dismanteling half the engine due to space !

Yeah don’t be afraid of the ECU. It’s there to help you.

Once you get used to that, then any small petrol engine is going to be pretty basic.

And there’s no way they can do that without complex electronics

Not really complex. You’ve got a handful of sensors which may fail and can be easily replaced – the ECU even tells you which one.

Yeah ecu isnt so bad but they pump todays cars full of sensors for everything !

Thats what gets my goat !

Twingo goes on my list of cars to look at in future …..

My van is basic . Keepfit windows and no central locking etc

Landys the same

Of all the cars ive had over the last 10 years the basics have by far been my favorite . Anything with electronics has failed me on electronics at one point or another ! Did 150k in a fiesta diesel – my favorite car was just like an economoc landy ! Oh and leavin no room to work on them is another hate of mine !

just buy a pre TD5 Defender. I’ve got a 20 year old 200tdi and wouldnt swop it for anything. I can tinker on anything myself, its running a full size Jeremy Fearn intercooler and Discovery transfer box so will do motorway speeds very comfortably.
Wife has had a Mazda MX5 which is okay to tinker with but is harder than the lanny to keep rust at bay with, just been replaced with a Volvo V70 (as we need the boot space) which is a nightmare-10 ECU’s, bespoke Volvo ODB port language so cheapo fault readers dont work on them-just hoping its going to be okay.

Toyota aygo is pretty basic but fun to drive. we love ours ( as a second car).

Hearing you loud ad clear rusty nissan prarie …. Looking for a 2 or 300tdi to dump in my 19j 90

Was more thinking what i could replace the van with in a few years . Good as the landy is its no motorway mile muncher

Just avoid modern diesels and overly complicated petrols like the VAG 1.4 TSI units. Accept slightly worse fuel economy (but still way better than a LR) but the rest of it should be fine. Ideally get something mainstream and common because you have a much better chance of pattern parts being made or getting secondhand bits from scrapyards.

As said, not much to be scared of on modern cars. OBDII lets you pull all kinds of data out about the state of things, and if something’s not right it tells you what’s wrong. Usually it’s a small cheap sensor which you just unplug and replace.

Everyone I know with LRs bangs on about how easy they are to work on, which is just as well because they seem to spend half their free time fixing the things.

You know the Revolution is long overdue when a gorram headlamp bulb is “dealer service only.” WTF.

cars are built to make you go back to the dealer and create more income for the manufacturer. It’s good business for them but a pain in the neck for us.

Stick with the Landy.

just buy a pre TD5 Defender.

Don’t fear the Storm. The TD5 is an excellent engine: robust, and more efficient than the 200/300tdi with more power and the possibility to tune it to silly levels. There’s still plenty of space around it to work on it, and a fault code reader will set you back £200 which for the diagnostics it provides you with is reasonable value.

Yeah ecu isnt so bad but they pump todays cars full of sensors for everything !

Thats what gets my goat !

Why? It makes cars better.

The only way modern cars get the good mpg is he electronics and sensors, while these may scare people, reliability of these parts is very good. The main things I find working on newer cars is the lack of space to get a stuff, computers cad design a car that is so compact and well fitted that to get to some parts the only way is to reverse the assembly process, while this is annoying it’s the only way to get everything in

x2 for Aygo (or Pug 107 or Citroen, they are all the same car). We’ve had ours a couple of years & would consider owning two & ditch a larger car.

Do i need sensors to tell me my brake pads are worn my tires are 3 psi too low that my shopping on the passengers seat isnt wearing a seat belt that its dark ad i need my lights on , that my window wipers need to be on and i cant actually turn the fookers off ……..

People with eyes can see all of the above if they just stopped being lazy an looked after their vehicles …. People who just drive there car and dont check oil water , tire pressure etc deserve their car to blow up frankly …..

Had all of above on a shitty hire scenic that went back with 40k km on clock to have its crankshaft position sensor replaced and its injection sequence reprogrammed or some shitr like that – sensors didnt see that coming did they ?

if you want something basic for diy maintenance, look at what they’re buying in lesser developed countries. The Dacia Logan is very cheap, very popular, pretty spacious utilitarian vehicle. Its designed to be maintained by little backstreet mechanics in deepest darkest wherever. Its available in France, but not over here, so you’d have to import one, but it’d probably do the job.

Do i need sensors to tell me my brake pads are worn my tires are 3 psi too low that my shopping on the passengers seat isnt wearing a seat belt that its dark ad i need my lights on , that my window wipers need to be on and i cant actually turn the fookers off

No, but those are not on all cars are they?

However the brake pads thing is useful – beats scrabbling around under the car and taking the wheels off every month, doesn’t it?

Had all of above on a shitty hire scenic that went back with 40k km on clock to have its crankshaft position sensor replaced and its injection sequence reprogrammed or some shitr like that

FFS. Have you been drinking?

Modern cars are more reliable, faster, more economical, safer, nicer to drive and handle better than old ones. Wtf are you complaining about?

Modern cars do seem to have to solve a mirid of issues that didn’t have to worry designers from a past generation (compact size in terms of mechanical space and extra safety issues being the biggest) and the fall out often seems to be accessability and complexity.

An example – to change the near side headlight bulb on my last car it was nessasary to remove the wheel to take the wheelarch lining out to access the bolts to loosen the nearside of the bumper; then remove the battery and battery box. That’s just daft!

If you are ever needing a good night’s sleep, Victor Papernak’s “Design for the real world” is a good read on the subject of designing of sustainable and maintainable products.

I used to have a 1970 VW Squareback, I loved that car, but had to sell it when the Twins came along. Needed someone with a bit more time than I had to give it some love.

Anyway, it developed a misfire when I was on my way to sell it. Ended up stripping down, cleaning and rebuilding one of the carbs in a Tesco car park, the only tools required were a scredriver and a 13mm spanner. You couldn’t do that with a modern car. Mind you, probably wouldn’t need to.

Lots of cars still make the effort to make stuff accessible. Sometimes though it’s not possible.

Ended up stripping down, cleaning and rebuilding one of the carbs in a Tesco car park, the only tools required were a scredriver and a 13mm spanner. You couldn’t do that with a modern car. Mind you, probably wouldn’t need to

Exactly. Plus, almost everyone would not know how to strip down and rebuild a carburettor, and to be honest most people have better things to do with their time than be forced to learn how to piss about with unreliable motors.

My Volvo V50 had a pin holding the headlight units in, slide out, headlamp comes out and easy bulb change – why don’t more cars have that (granted when they are on all the time you do have to change then more regularly) All I eever did to mine was basic services, and when it did develop a fault it was down to an injector wire breaking rather than some software fault.

I was driving a borrowed beemer last weekend and while not a major gadget fan the auto-dimming high beam was frikin marvellous , only thing that confused it on occasion was the relection from a couple of signs, otherwise was a marvel.

We were discussing this today. What you need is a car with the overall lowest running costs. I wish they would publish those figures.

buy a VAG car, you obviously know how to use a computer, get yourself a VAGCOM set up from china for a few quid and you’ll have dealer-level diagnostics and programming for a great price.

mum has a golf 1.6, plugged vagcom in, oh it’s ignition module 3, replace part, reset and on its way before i went to work.

with more modern engines the are more efficient, more economical and as it’s a post 2001 car you need all the help you can get so you don’t get stung by the tax man.

take your head out of the sand and get it around cars using engine sensors.

yes, folk need to be aware that a tyre is 3psi out as it could well make a difference to fuel economy, handling etc.

i’ve worked on some fairly complex cars, stuff that my friends wouldn’t touch and the dealer wanted a fortune for (just audi) and save for ‘big’ jobs like engine out, i’ve been able to do most of it quickly and efficiently by having the correct part flag in the ecu. when my head was in the sand (same situ as you really) i’d go and replace one part hoping that it was the right one, and then replace another after that if it didn’t work.

same time and money!
(written quickly before my commute in, apologies for cr*p spelling and grammar)

My Volvo V50 had a pin holding the headlight units in, slide out, headlamp comes out and easy bulb change –

Same on my xc90 unlike the laguna i had which claimed the bumeper need to come off to replace the bulbs as you neede to take the head light out (you could just get your hand down the bcak and undo the cover)
Some things are desgined to make the delaers money where as others it just to fit them in to the space avaliable.
Haven taken the interiour out of my xc90 it was a joy to remove (if a little heavy)as it was well engineered. Most people don’t want to look after there cars they just want them to work like the tv, dishwasher etc.

What about a Hi Lux with the crew cab on. Early ones had the indestructible 2.5D engine. Kids in the cab and the bikes in the pick up back.

I had a old corsa 1.4 they are very easy to work on an rearly go wrong I had more trouble with the old carve in my 1st nova an mk1 caddy crap peirberg 2e2

Do i need sensors to tell me my brake pads are worn

I had a 30-year old merc that did that!

Tinas i see what you mean but example i wanted to change power steering pump on my partner . Meant dismanteling half the engine due to space !

Designer fekwitery isn’t limited to new cars……..

Just on the midget (this applies to a lot of british cars as the parts were all BL/BMC part bin jobs form the 50’s).

Lucas headlights, if the bulb goes, the whole lense, bulb, side, dip and main beam asembly is one sealed unit! So if a bulb blows you also have to get the headlamps re-aligned next MOT or blind everyone in the meantime.

Midget gearboxes can’t be droped out as they sit on a crossmember, so a clutch change is an engine out job.

Mini distributors, though a marvel of packegeing, putting the radiator in the wheel arch to save space is a great idea. Until it rains as the electrics are right in the fireing line for all that water.

And that’s before you crash one, my parents have been in an MGB which which became the filling in a transit-crash barrier sandwich, the nearside front wheel and suspension ended up in the passenger footwell, thankfully my mums short! They also had a morris traveler which was written off, wasn’t much left of that oen either when an other driver fell asleep and drove into it!

Do i need sensors to tell me my brake pads are worn

In fairness, all cars have that, it’s a little copper rivet that stands ~1-2mm prout of the backing plate and mkes that screeching sound just before you run out of pads.

I think there’s some confusion regarding “basic”. Basic modern cars as described above are so called because of lack of “comfort features” not because of basic mechanicals. These are often as complex if not more so than larger versions to extract the most economy/power/drivability etc. from small capacity engine units.

Used to go banger racing in the mid 80’s (driving not watching) using mainly late 60’s early 70’s stuff; Rovers, Triumphs, Cortinas, Victors etc. We chose the larger cars for obvious reasons and these were the “luxury” vehicles of their day but all could be started and run on three wires. However power, reliability and especially consumption for like for like engine capacity is vastly superior these days. The internals haven’t changed (much) it’s all down to the ability to control the engine to much finer detail for fuelling etc. that enabled this. Still miss the noise of a couple of 45’s sucking air.

It is annoying when an EML comes on and after reading the fault code you replace the offending part as described (ERG in our case last week) and it doesn’t fix it. Thought we’d have to go to the dealer but decided to try the more traditional method, working through the relevant system line until the problem was fixed. Lucy may be but it was satisfying (and cheaper).