Wait until next year. If it’s emissions are above 255 it’ll be £2,000 per year.

Only £2000 for the first year, if it is registered after 1st April 2017
Then either £140 every year or £450 per year if the car cost more than £40,000

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/88361/tax-disc-changes-everything-you-need-to-know-about-uk-road-tax

It’ll never stop me moaning about London Public Transport No, in fact I could go on about how bloody awful it is riding around the Capital and breathing in the stink of poorly maintained Public Transport and include Taxis and Trucks and such.

The forthcoming emissions regulations were put back by two years because of the backlash of LT and the body that look after Taxis.. They said “whiney whiney blah di blah” so the Govt caved in and continued to suck their thumbs.

And we all know if you massage the figures to suit your own political leaning, you’ll get the answer somewhere underneath that you are looking for.

So moan I will, thanks for pointing that out.

More seriously, there are two significant facts that are important here, and often missed:

1) The rules for EU “air pollution” were changed in 2008. Levels that are considered harmful were HALVED! Our city air quality has in fact been improving year on year across all the major pollutants (CO,NOx,PM) because of less industrial activity, less coal burning in households, and massively better engines in cars and buses/trucks etc. However, because of the new lower limit, some of our towns fail this limit on their worse days (in real terms they are still cleaner than they ever were of course!) You can go here:LondonAirQuality
And plot data over the last 20 years for lots of london air monitoring sites

2) Modern diesels ARE cleaner than older ones. Despite all the rubbish spouted in the papers and by people who don’t understand the science of vehicle tailpipe emissions (which, is most people). Banning “newly registered” deisels is, of course, idiotic, when banning a single 10 year old one will make something like 10x bigger impact on total tailpipe emissions.

For example, lets compare EU3 and EU6 diesel limits (in g/km):

EU3 (Passenger cars 2000->2005) CO: 0.64 NOx: 0.5 PM: 0.05
EU6 (Passenger cars 2014 onward) CO: 0.50 NOx: 0.08 PM: 0.005

% Reductions: CO: 22% NOx: 98% PM: 90%

Then we get to the fact which the vast majority of people miss, namely:

Tailpipe emissions are NOT linear with engine load

The official test cycle for emisisions is conducted across a range of speed and loads, with a “cold” engine start at the beginning, and a faster, “highway” section at the end of the test. The Tailpipe emissions are collected for the whole test, and averaged out over the distance travelled, hence they are in grams/km.

But a passenger car in our crowded city centre is not under ANY significant load, so it is not running combustion pressures and temperatures sufficient to actually produce, for example any significant NOx. (in fact at idle, it’s practically impossible to actually measure the concentration of tailpipe NOx for a typical EU6 passenger car!) And at Idle, the engine AFR will be between 80 and 120 to 1, resulting is extremely low PM emissions too.

So, a gaggle of modern diesel cars in the city centre (those Audi’s, Ewoks, BMWs mentioned earlier) will not be contribution in any meaningful way to the local air quality reduction.

IMO, the REAL reason we need to ban passenger cars from our city centres is simply due to a lack of space. Our population density and our classically layed out city plans means there is just no point trying to drive across a modern UK town or city in a private passenger car. All you do is spend 5 hours sat at a red light or in a queue of other people going nowhere fast!

wilburt
The key metric to vehicle efficiency and one almost never discussed is weight

Sorry, but, no, no it isn’t.

Vehicle Mass does has a bearing on total tailpipe emissions, but it’s not as critical as you might think. This is because energy stored in the vehicles KE is only lost when you brake (to heat in the brakes) so if you are driving for efficiency, you are not braking, so the KE is only lost to drag.

If we are talking about City centre driving, at low average speed and load, the most important factor is actually engine frictional and parasitic losses!

It’ll never stop me moaning about London Public Transport No, in fact I could go on about how bloody awful it is riding around the Capital and breathing in the stink of poorly maintained Public Transport and include Taxis and Trucks and such.

Fill your boots: I find it’s pretty common for Londoners to moan about something that’s better than any other part of the country.

Modern diesels ARE cleaner than older ones

You’re right: the latest diesels are only two to three times as bad as they claim to be. You also need to look at the percentage of diesel cars on the road compared with twenty years ago…

So, a gaggle of modern diesel cars in the city centre (those Audi’s, Ewoks, BMWs mentioned earlier) will not be contribution in any meaningful way to the local air quality reduction.

Diesel is the dominant source of poor local air quality, because as you say, many of the other sources have been cleaned up or have disappeared. So we need to do something about it.

Reading this slightly guiltily because I’ve just bought an older diesel estate. But I don’t run a company van…

the latest diesels are only two to three times as bad as they claim to be.

Link? I mean actual data not clickbait newspaper articles.

But a passenger car in our crowded city centre is not under ANY significant load, so it is not running combustion pressures and temperatures sufficient to actually produce, for example any significant NOx.

If that’s the case, then perhaps 20mph limits would do more than banning diesel? It’s so easy to get to 20mp it would force people to stay off the pedal and spend more time in the low NOx zone.

I provided a link the last time we discussed this… I can’t find it now so try the forum search.

More seriously, there are two significant facts that are important here, and often missed:

Pfft. Who needs facts when you have the internet.

maxtorque – Member

More seriously, there are two significant facts that are important here, and often missed:

Now now Max. Stop all this talking sense from an educated and fact based position please.

Cars are bigger and heavier in a large ( 😉 ) part to pass / score highly in the crash tests

Philjunior nailed it here:

There are also issues with idling, traffic calming causing heavy footed driving, traffic light phasing often being suboptimal to allow smooth driving and so forth. And, of course, a massive deficit in good infrastructure to allow safe, fast and convenient travel by bike within cities (I challenge anyone to find a cycle path scheme that doesn’t take longer to navigate than just sticking to the main roads – which will be likely to be better maintained and gritted in winter etc.)

Edinburgh being one of the worst for this when you take into account it’s completely unintuitive and relatively unsignposted road system. Just turning off red lights in quiet hours would improve things immensely (flashing amber instead).

Maxtorque also has good points.

The other point nobody seems to wants to address is that these emissions are primarily problems in cities where the air is relatively still and the concentration is greatest. Out in the country its much less of a problem.

IMO, the REAL reason we need to ban passenger cars from our city centres is simply due to a lack of space. Our population density and our classically layed out city plans means there is just no point trying to drive across a modern UK town or city in a private passenger car. All you do is spend 5 hours sat at a red light or in a queue of other people going nowhere fast!

Agreed.
I commute into West London every day. (Isleworth, near Twickenham) Couldn’t do it in a car as it would double my journey time, train isn’t feasible (Last time I looked) despite the fact I’m within a mile of 3 stations at home and within 100 yards of one at work, so I commute buy motorbike. (12,000 miles a year) which happens to be by far the cheapest way to do it as well, at £6.39 a day* for a round trip of 52 miles. The car would be £7.59/day for fuel alone.

Slightly annoyingly, if my Honda was taxed in the same bracket as a car, it would be free.But as it’s a bike it costs £82. No sense in that at all.

*That’s all running costs but not tax/insurance

The other point nobody seems to wants to address is that these emissions are primarily problems in cities where the air is relatively still and the concentration is greatest. Out in the country its much less of a problem.

I’m pretty sure it is being addressed hence the low emission zone in London etc.

You only have to drive around London (like I did yesterday) to see the layer of grime on everything/everywhere. I have a little sign in my car that comes up when the air quality is poor. It stayed on almost all the time inside the M25. It can’t be much fun inside your lungs either.

It never comes on around the Pennine area unless you are stuck behind a bus.

BTW, i do 32miles a day in my i3 into MK and back, although that’s mostly cross country rather than in town driving, has zero tailpipe emissons, and it costs me just 1.8p/mile in ‘lecy.. Call it 64p a day…….. 😆

what is this “road tax” that everyone keeps banging on about … I
thought we were in 1976 not 1937 !!! … 😉

as one of the unfortunates I will still be driving around in my 15 year
old diesel as I can’t afford to replace it anytime soon, unless of
course I get a tax break …. and back in the room !

ScottChegg

It never comes on around the Pennine area unless you are stuck behind a bus

Hmm, i see a correlation here…… 😉

I’m pretty sure it is being addressed hence the low emission zone in London etc.

You only have to drive around London (like I did yesterday) to see the layer of grime on everything/everywhere. I have a little sign in my car that comes up when the air quality is poor. It stayed on almost all the time inside the M25. It can’t be much fun inside your lungs either.

But it’s not. Everyone seems to be calling for diesels to be completely banned when in fact they are nothing like a problem when you get outside of cities. That’s my point.

The problem in cities isn’t private cars per-se. It’s a complete lack of functional and/or affordable mass transit and alternative transport infrastructure.

BTW, i do 32miles a day in my i3 into MK and back, although that’s mostly cross country rather than in town driving, has zero tailpipe emissons, and it costs me just 1.8p/mile in ‘lecy.. Call it 64p a day…….

It’s probably a touch more expensive to buy/lease than a motorbike though.

The other point nobody seems to wants to address is that these emissions are primarily problems in cities where the air is relatively still and the concentration is greatest. Out in the country its much less of a problem.

Well yeah, but then the people in the country drive into the city…

can I get my landrover registered for veg oil?

Slightly annoyingly, if my Honda was taxed in the same bracket as a car, it would be free.But as it’s a bike it costs £82. No sense in that at all.

PP – I was thinking that just the other day when I took my NC in for it’s service. At 80mpg+, our CO2 emissions ought to put it in the “free” bracket no?

I had been considering getting rid of my diesel car for some time. I to was sort of swayed by the consensus ( at the time) that the modern ones were ok.

The government promoted them really with low road fund tax, and I was pulled in by it.

Over time, I realised the environmental impact , and the fact that a diesel was the wrong car for us.

Sold it last week.

Bought a Nissan Leaf yesterday.

Considered a petrol / hybrid car, but the Leaf makes a lot of sense for our driving and the environment.
We are fortunate that we have solar panels on the roof to offset the electricity generation from the grid also.

Lovely car to drive, drive slower on the motorway and sit back and relax.

Understand that it’s not for everyone, and the cost isn’t too bad compared to a Golf sized petrol car of about one year old.

At 80mpg+, our CO2 emissions ought to put it in the “free” bracket no?

It’s to offset the extra cost of clearing up the accidents you cause and treating smashed up motorcyclists in hospital.

*runs away*

The other point nobody seems to wants to address is that these emissions are primarily problems in cities where the air is relatively still and the concentration is greatest. Out in the country its much less of a problem.

Where most kms get done. So out there a low CO2 car would be of more benefit than a low NOx car.

what is this hybrid/electric/hydrogen sorcery cars you all banging about? until it drives and sounds like a straight six tell them lots to go back to the drawing board and stop pestering the roads with glorified golf carts

8)

All we’re really discussing here is moving the problem from one place to another.
What we need to do is reduce our energy consumption rather than just transferring it, but this will never happen as people are lazy and selfish.

Except me, who has taken a large pay cut to ensure that I can walk to work and stop using cars.
Honestly, my levels of smug are so high they’ve actually attained mass, which ironically means I need more energy to get about.

until it drives and sounds like a straight six

V8 FTW.

Unfortunately the nature of today’s world means that selfishly people HAVE to live miles from work if their partner works somewhere else.

Until telecommuting becomes both viable and practical for most people we will still subject ourselves to the ridiculous rush twice a day to get to a desk we typically never leave and then do a job that could be equally as well performed from our own homes.

Until telecommuting becomes both viable and practical for most people we will still subject ourselves to the ridiculous rush twice a day to get to a desk we typically never leave and then do a job that could be equally as well performed from our own homes.

Works in theory, not so much in practice.
I could do a large proportion of my job from home, but being lazy and unmotivated i’d end up spending my whole day putting off work and end up doing nothing. I suspect this applies to quite a large % of the population

Sbob has it. People are lazy bastards, me included but there are degrees of laziness..

Take my work for example: Office block in Newcastle city centre, pain in the arse to get to by car, cheapest parking is £5/day and a 10 min walk away, we have two really nice shower rooms and “leisure” lockers, secure underground bicycle racks with CCTV with card access (I don’t even lock mine to anything) and there are only 2 people (out of maybe 300) that cycle to work regularly… we have a shower room EACH! The amount of people that are genuinely bamboozled by me cycling not even 12 miles round trip a day is staggering! A number of people have said stuff like “What’s up with your car? Is it in the garage?”. “How do you cycle in the rain?”. “But it’s dark outside?”. Mental.

Anyway, I must replace that rear wheel on my commuter as there’s only been 1 person cycling to work recently and it ain’t me!

I spend every afternoon in TCs with US I’m in one right now. It makes no difference where I sit. I sometimes do them from the pub they have good WiFi just don’t tell my boss or my wife.

Works in theory, not so much in practice.
I could do a large proportion of my job from home, but being lazy and unmotivated i’d end up spending my whole day putting off work and end up doing nothing. I suspect this applies to quite a large % of the population

That’s the kind of attitude adjustment that’s required before we can make progress.

Not meaning to come over as too smug, but it is about enforcing behaviour change.

We won,t be able to carry on with our fossil fuel burning habits due to the impact on the environment, plus they will run out in the near future.

We need to protect the environment for the future generations ( who knows how history will portray us) who may very well see us as being stupidly lazy and selfish.

The climate has already changed, but can be slowed down.
It’s probably in the realms of governments making us change our behaviours now.

V8 FTW.

Indeed, straight six did seem an odd target. Mine’s pretty boring and doesn’t make much sound at all (E90 325i). It cost loads to tax and insure, doesn’t go hugely fast and it’s currently sat on 23mpg.

With the new 2017 tax setup I want Mustang GT, after the initial lump sum payment you’re only paying £140 a year. A 3-4 years on and the new system is cheaper than the old one. The people getting shafted are those buying new, low emission, cars. Bonkers.

Sorry, miles off topic now. Boo! Down with dirty diesel cars!

Edit: I feel terrible posting this after the previous post, hehe. If it helps at all, I walked in to work today!

No.

I bought my diesel on the basis that it was greener than petrol.
Why should I be penalised?
I can’t afford a new vehicle and the value of the current one will drop.

Public health concerns trump your personal financial loss.

It’s that simple.

…We won,t be able to carry on with our fossil fuel burning habits … they will run out in the near future.

widely believed, but not true.

Sure, there’s only enough crude oil to get us through the next 50 years or so. But that’s the stuff that squirts out of the ground when you drill a hole in the desert.

(The world uses approx €100million barrels of oil per day, Saudi Arabia alone has at least 150billion barrels in the tank)

We’ve already seen oil selling at $100+ per barrel, and at that price we can afford to dig up, extract, process, etc. things like oil shale. And there’s chuffing loads of that. At least enough to last a century or 2.

Which is quite worrying really.

Yup. A tactical error, that- a lot of the anti-carbon debate became about peak oil and lifespan, because it was seen as a persuasive argument to transition away. And it was persuasive- just that instead of persuading people that we should stop burning oil, it persuaded people that it’s OK to obtain it by any means from any location, because we’re running out.

I agree with the challenge of folk living miles from work and commuting, as well as the work from home can mean slacking…

It is time to be creative –
Prudential near us has lack of parking and so offers free buses to the station, and the local towns. The fleet of 20-30 buses/coaches each night takes hundreds of cars off the road and connects with other transport. Plus, they sell it as a perk of the job, saving you transport costs.
Why don’t we have shared office spaces in more places, helping folk be in a work like environment and not able to spend the afternoon playing on the xBox putting a report together.
Offer free eBikes,
great showers and changing facilities,
use pool cars not company cars more,
pay mileage for walking and cycling on company business

I cycle about 5 miles each way to work pretty much every day, or get the train into town usually with my Brommie so’s I can cycle back home or to the office via places I want to visit :wink:, but at the moment I’m also driving nearly 1000 miles a month to go to meetings for one of my projects. My nice new diesel estate gets about 58mpg on these runs. I could go by train but it’d add another hour- hour and a half each end of those days.

@awhiles yes indeed