Anyone who denies that to be the case is being deliberately obtuse, or in true STW fashion is just being a sanctimonious arse :wink:.

Luckily, no one has denied it, have they?

PeterPoddy – Member

I bought my diesel on the basis that it was greener than petrol.

But it’s not. It never has been and it probably never will be. I’ve always known this, and it’s fairly obvious if you look. Who told you this?

😀 😀 😀

I don’t believe that you were unaware that diesel was promoted as greener than petrol.
As others have said, it was the official line for years.

Sorry, this is just being lazy. They were promoted as they were lower c02 and incentives were brought in as it was seen as an easy way to reduce c02. But they were not seen ‘greener’ unless you just read the marketing. The problem with particles has always been know about but the affects of sweeping this problem under the carpet are now being felt.

You argument on money makes no sense to me. You car will be losing money anyway and if you cannot afford a new one why are you worried about it’s loss of money? In a few years time it will be worth a standard trade in amount. Cars should get more expensive to run as they have got cheaper to run compared to public transport over the last 15 years. Your car has a limited life span so a ban in 2025 will not really have a huge affect on your current car anyway.

I am now driving to work because it’s far cheaper than getting the train which I used to do. This to me makes no sense at all as a country. The city gets more congested as everyone does the same. I have a train station 5 minutes walk from my house so I don’t even have to worry about parking/bus costs.

Particulates from modern direct injection petrols are supposed to be very harmful as well, so my petrol which does 50-60mpg is not as green as I wish it was.

It’ll inevitably will happen. I’m not sure the UK is backward about it given other countries have only announced such measures recently.

This.

But auto mnfrs better start making decent petrol vans now so that I can afford a secondhand one by the time the UK gets round to it.

Particulates from modern direct injection petrols are supposed to be very harmful as well

That’s probably why particulates are also included as a criteria on the Euro5 and Euro6 emissions regulations for direct injection petrol. So basically all new cars since 2009.
edit: and if petrol really is that bad, then they’ll have to use mechanical means to filter those particulates just like they have no choice with for diesel engines.

traildog – Member

I don’t believe that you were unaware that diesel was promoted as greener than petrol.
As others have said, it was the official line for years.

Sorry, this is just being lazy. They were promoted as they were lower c02 and incentives were brought in as it was seen as an easy way to reduce c02. But they were not seen ‘greener’ unless you just read the marketing. The problem with particles has always been know about but the affects of sweeping this problem under the carpet are now being felt.

Lazy or not, the general public perception was that diesels were the green (stupid meaningless word, admittedly) option.

People are driven more by personal economy than ecological concerns and I can’t blame them for thinking diesels were “greener”, despite the warnings about particulates being made for many years now.

I think a lot of buyers take a “well it must be safe if I’m allowed to buy it” approach.

And as I hinted above, us van drivers don’t have much choice.

chakaping – Member
…But auto mnfrs better start making decent petrol vans now so that I can afford a secondhand one by the time the UK gets round to it.

we’ve got an electric van at work, a Nissan something or other.

everyone who drives it seems to like it, and the range for nipping around town all day hasn’t been an issue so far.

the lease costs are roughly the same as the fuel costs would be…

Angeldust, no one has denied that we are now more aware, rightly so, of particulates.

But for a long time, diesel was sold as a greener alternative.

And next there are the magnitite particles from petrol engines…

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/sep/05/toxic-air-pollution-particles-found-in-human-brains-links-alzheimers

we’ve got an electric van at work,

I admit I haven’t researched them much as they’re way out of my budget and I don’t do leasing, but I’d be a bit concerned about heading up to NW Scotland or driving across Europe.

I assume they’re more suitable for local delivery duties ATM.

You could more immediately get started by banning all Euro 4 vehicles from city centres. Those are far more polluting than Euro 5 and also old enough that it shouldn’t affect owners too badly.

You could even run a scrappage scheme to encourage older polluters off the roads.

Manufacturers need to be encouraged to sell cars with better petrol engines. My car cannot be bought with a petrol engine in the UK. The only option on my wife’s people carrier is a 1.4 petrol stressed to the max, so we went for the 2.0 diesel. If there had been a decent 2.0 petrol on offer, we’d have gone for that over the diesel.

People are driven more by personal economy than ecological concern

This. Which is why I’m currently driving rather than getting the train and having sleepness nights upset about it after I’ve stayed up to happily count my extra money.

Public transport needs to be cheaper.

Quite a few UK city centres are moving to charge for petrol and diesel vehicles entering cities, certainly Leeds is. It will not just be diesels that are hit.

http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/politics/leeds-to-get-congestion-charge-for-gas-guzzling-vehicles-1-7629904

Manufacturers need to be encouraged to sell cars with better petrol engines. My car cannot be bought with a petrol engine in the UK. The only option on my wife’s people carrier is a 1.4 petrol stressed to the max, so we went for the 2.0 diesel. If there had been a decent 2.0 petrol on offer, we’d have gone for that over the diesel.

Careful though, there are a number of options out there with zero emissions now, one being my BMW 330e which goes like sh!t off a shovel, and does an amazing 20mpg when you drive it fast, yet the government say its very very eco friendly. It is exempt from any London charge, and would be exempt from other city centre charges

I bought my diesel on the basis that it was greener than petrol.
But it’s not. It never has been and it probably never will be.

For goodness sake, people.

Green? What does ‘green’ mean, specifically? Green means green, I suppose?

Diesels DO emit less CO2, that’s for sure. But whether or not it’s greener than petrol depends on what your criteria for ‘green’ is, doens’t it?

London already has a Low Emissions Zone.. remember back in 2009-10 when all my Mates who owned T4 Vans ditched them because of the Daily Charge (something like £200) was placed upon them. What the Govt failed to do at the time was include Trucks and Lorries in that initiative, clearly back handers and MP’s at the time were once again rife.

Idiots are idiots.

Burning any fossil fuel for transportation is by definition Not Green.

Burning any fossil fuel for transportation is by definition Not Green.

And filling a car with batteries is so much cleaner?

You could more immediately get started by banning all Euro 4 vehicles from city centres. Those are far more polluting than Euro 5 and also old enough that it shouldn’t affect owners too badly.

That’s the way Germany does it. For those cities (and a few conurbation areas) in the scheme, everything pre-Euro3 are banned.

Those are far more polluting than Euro 5 and also old enough that it shouldn’t affect owners too badly.

I think there will be a massive uproar if or when they change the rule to only allow Euro4 or newer, unless there is a(nother) scrappage scheme, or a long phase-in period. My car would be affected for sure.

Anyway – more constructively – does anyone know with any degree of confidence how low the NOx and particulate emissions are on new cars with SCR?

Maybe this sort of thing should be done at a higher, Europe wide level. Maybe some kind of Europe wide union with the power to make laws for all to follow? Sounds good!, I’m in

Funny how the diesel pollution issue happened with vehicles complying with EU wide emission regs while the fightback against them is happening at a city level. Maybe there is something for local democracy and sovereignty?

Car manufacturers don’t give a chuff except to move new product and hide the fact there’s massive over-production in the European car market and that it’s only been kept alive by cheap finance and lease plans whereas owners are ‘encouraged’ to replace vehicles every 2-3 years, the manufacturers buy them back and create inflated residuals in the used-car market. Politicians are at their behest as it sustains employment in their constituencies e.g Nissan’s post-Brexit deal.

Will be my last diesal…..bought the last 5 due to the mileage I do/did ….all vw but the last one a 2.0 TDI has just been dire and troublesome

Where we live not owning a car would mean cycling everywhere …. all the bus routes are being stopped, the train journey to get to my work base would take 2hr 30 minutes one way compared to 40 minutes in a car,..,.. so infrastructure needs to be looked at

Not sure about the 1970s we are heading back to the 1870s

@dove not to mention 20% VAT too

It’s time we had some properly funded independent research testing cars on the road when new, 5 and 10 years old. Petrol and Diesel across a few different models. Should make this compulsory and at manufacturers expense for all cars which have sold some threshold amount, say 100,000 vehicles ?

Idiots are idiots.

Burning any fossil fuel for transportation is by definition Not Green.

Obvious is obvious. There are shades of green though. Expert opinion seems to be that for local air pollution petrol is better.

Note the comment on the BMW 330e – same kind of thing as the Merc 350e (except no estate available). In my mind with these cars they should have used a more economical petrol engine in combination with the electric motor. Whilst over 200bhp is nice, for people wanting better economy even using say a 1.6 turbo would have been a better option.

I was also tempted with a Lexus 300h as that’s a petrol hybrid, but they plagued it with a cvt box.

We need viable alternatives to diesel before killing them off.

Just to add when I don’t need the car for work I try to cycle to the office (in the middle of Bristol). Public transport as an alternative isn’t a great option. Bristol buses being more expensive than in any other city I’ve got public transport in. Trains aren’t any better either – peak train to London from Bristol is now over £200 return. Versus off peak of around £70. Outrageous.

The biggest issue in London is the Public transport vehicles, busses and taxis are by far the worst offenders but there will be Nothing done about them, ever, likewise trucks.

Low emissions zone, hybrid buses, hybrid taxis. All being done right now.

I’m also told that a Euro 6 diesel bus is actually cleaner than a Euro 5 diesel car. Factor in the number of passengers and it’s a no brainer.

People are driven more by personal economy than ecological concerns and I can’t blame them for thinking diesels were “greener”, despite the warnings about particulates being made for many years now.

The economy point should be driven by the ecological concerns though. If diesel is more polluting per mile, then it should cost more to travel a mile in a typical diesel than in a typical petrol car. Likewise, road tax, which as any fule know is based on emissions, should be higher for diesels. You can’t make it cheaper to travel a mile by diesel, and make a 2.0 diesel cheaper than a 2.0 petrol to tax and then act surprised that people choose the diesel.

I say that as a diesel owner. I wouldn’t buy one now, but I bought it six years ago based at least in part on (emissions) tax and fuel economy, I will fully admit I didn’t search out research papers on the effects of fine particulates on health. But I don’t do that when I buy anything else.

Outside of a couple of cities (or maybe just London?) in the UK, what choice do I have but private car? Public transport is almost universally useless or non-existent and there is no cycle infrastructure. I use my bike where I can but the constant ‘cyclecraft’ needed to deal with the UK’s hostile roads and arsehole drivers is dispiriting and I completely understand why most people don’t even consider riding a bike instead of driving everywhere. Fix that, then by all means sort out the diesel issue, but without an alternative what are people expected to do?

If only there were some kind of transport that emitted little or no harmless gases, kept people healthy, and put a grin on their faces*. If this mode of transport were small and light enough to be carried on public transport for longer distances then so much the better. Obviously if this item were prone to planned obsolescence things wouldn’t be quite so rosy.

* obviously I’m not talking about roadies here.

FunkyDunc – Member
Burning any fossil fuel for transportation is by definition Not Green.
And filling a car with batteries is so much cleaner?

Certainly not, but most power stations also burn fossil fuels don’t they, but you know that so why pick up on that single point..

My statement reads, for clarity: Burning any fossil fuel for transportation is by definition Not Green.

HTHs

I think there’s no doubt that emissions are a problem, particularly from roads in urban areas.

The problem isn’t simply down to those naughty diesel car makers though, if tests were adequate (they’re not), emissions would be lower. If you truly want air in cities to be a particular quality, don’t ban cars based on fuel type, restrict them based on the emission levels – it may be that this is an effective ban on certain types (or all types) of car, but that will encourage people to develop cars that are adequately clean based on the most effective technology.

There are also issues with idling, traffic calming causing heavy footed driving, traffic light phasing often being suboptimal to allow smooth driving and so forth. And, of course, a massive deficit in good infrastructure to allow safe, fast and convenient travel by bike within cities (I challenge anyone to find a cycle path scheme that doesn’t take longer to navigate than just sticking to the main roads – which will be likely to be better maintained and gritted in winter etc.)

So in response to the OP, we’re massively backwards, particularly at the moment with recent changes to vehicle excise duty (which wasn’t a significant cost but was effective in modifying buying behaviour) and fuel duty. But this it isn’t simply the case that banning diesel cars would solve the problem (buses etc would still be polluting in cities – and with their age and constant stopping and starting, they contribute significantly)

If only there were some kind of transport that emitted little or no harmless gases, kept people healthy, and put a grin on their faces*.

Ahem, this is stw, not a cycling forum.

bikebouy – Member

The biggest issue in London is the Public transport vehicles, busses and taxis are by far the worst offenders but there will be Nothing done about them, ever

For buses- Per vehicle, perhaps. Per person, no. And lots has already been done about reduction.

For taxis, lots is already being done in London- from 2018 onwards it’ll be impossible to licence a new taxi that can’t do zero emissions driving, and private hires will have to be euro 6. And then they all have to have zero emissions capability by 202-something.

But don’t let that stop you 😉

I think there’s no doubt that emissions are a problem, particularly from roads in urban areas.

The problem isn’t simply down to those naughty diesel car makers though, if tests were adequate (they’re not), emissions would be lower. If you truly want air in cities to be a particular quality, don’t ban cars based on fuel type, restrict them based on the emission levels – it may be that this is an effective ban on certain types (or all types) of car, but that will encourage people to develop cars that are adequately clean based on the most effective technology.

There are also issues with idling, traffic calming causing heavy footed driving, traffic light phasing often being suboptimal to allow smooth driving and so forth. And, of course, a massive deficit in good infrastructure to allow safe, fast and convenient travel by bike within cities (I challenge anyone to find a cycle path scheme that doesn’t take longer to navigate than just sticking to the main roads – which will be likely to be better maintained and gritted in winter etc.)

So in response to the OP, we’re massively backwards, particularly at the moment with recent changes to vehicle excise duty (which wasn’t a significant cost but was effective in modifying buying behaviour) and fuel duty. But this it isn’t simply the case that banning diesel cars would solve the problem (buses etc would still be polluting in cities – and with their age and constant stopping and starting, they contribute significantly. And petrol cars might be cleaner but they don’t emit flowers and clear running streams, do they?)

chakaping – Member
“we’ve got an electric van at work”

I admit I haven’t researched them much as they’re way out of my budget and I don’t do leasing, but I’d be a bit concerned about heading up to NW Scotland or driving across Europe.

I assume they’re more suitable for local delivery duties ATM.

as part of our lease, we get the option of requesting (for free) a diesel van if we think range is an issue.

Autonomous electric delivery vans – that’ll really change how things work.

For taxis, lots is already being done in London- from 2018 onwards it’ll be impossible to licence a new taxi that can’t do zero emissions driving, and private hires will have to be euro 6. And then they all have to have zero emissions capability by 202-something.

And we all know how good the euro emissions tests are for representing real driving conditions. Meanwhile these cars will be producing zero emissions 10% of the time.

Bring it on:

I’m all right, Jack !! 😆

And we all know how good the euro emissions tests are for representing real driving conditions. Meanwhile these cars will be producing zero emissions 10% of the time.

Sure, more could be done, but it’s a massive step forward from what we have now. Have you seen the emissions data for a London taxi?!

The key metric to vehicle efficiency and one almost never discussed is weight, regardless of power supply if you control the weight of vehicles you will improve effiency and reduce toxic emmisions.

Obviously those who get hard over electric closing air vents and cars the size of houses will object but there is no reason for such excess and lots of reason to reign it in.

The key metric to vehicle efficiency and one almost never discussed is weight, regardless of power supply if you control the weight of vehicles you will improve effiency and reduce toxic emmisions.

Almost never discussed?

The key metric is emissions – that’s the bottom line. Weight is one of the factors, which is why car manufacturers have been reducing weight. I read that Mazda re-routed the wiring in one of their cars and saved something like 3kg of wire. Saves money for them, reduces the car’s weight, win/win.