Now I know I have many bad habits but this is a riding style one and its driving me crackers!

Too many years of motorcycling have left me with reflexes that as I initiate a turn I stick my knee out, tip a shoulder into the turn and transfer weight to the inside of the bike – keeping the bike more upright. Obviously this does not work on an MTB and thus the bike tends to washout and be sluggish to turn so I miss the apex

I know the correct thing to do is to weight the outside pedal and to push the bike down into the turn and when I remember to think about this I can do it – but as soon as I stop concentrating on the correct technique I am back to my old ways again. The annoying thing is I have not ridden a motorbike for 3 years hardly and ride my MTB lots.

So how can I ensure I do it correctly and stop the bad habits? Any bright ideas?

Help!

This is the sort of body position I seem to adopt automatically.

Sounds like you may have a career in moto gp.

I wish 🙂 – thats the classic modern motorcycle body position.

Want me to teach you next time TJ instead of spunking past you?

stay above your bike

get yourself one of these instead……….. problem solved 😉

I had several bad habits which I kind of knew about but which just sort of stayed there. A couple of years ago I went on a Skills Day run by AQR. Now I know Ian and Kate who own/run AQR but having Ian yell abuse at me whenever I screwed it up soon got me correcting it.
It made a noticeable difference as well – I kept on practising what they'd taught me and at the next race I felt so much smoother through the singletrack as it all came together.

While it may go against every instinct (an experienced rider paying someone to shout at you), it's well worth it every year or so. I'd reckon that the money spent on a day of tutoring is worth 10x that amount spent on bike bling.

Jedi – I know that and can do it when I concentrate – but as soon as I start thinking about the jump or whatever that is coming up after the corner I am at it again – knee out, leading with the shoulder and bodyweight inside the bike rather than staying above the bike

I need a mantra to chant or some jedi mind trick to stop me riding the MTB like a motorbike. It decades of reflexes but you would have thought a few years of riding mainly MTBs would have cured me.

Its really frustrating.

TJ to be honest, if you're cornering like that ^ in a typical corner on a mtb you're WAY faster than pretty much anyone

or do you mean bike is upright with you at 10 degrees lean ?

You are right the second time – thats the body position I tend to adopt but I am at 10 degrees lean and the bike upright – hence I totally miss the apex and end up with a really slow exit speed 🙁

Knee down on an MTB would be ccol

There are four key elements of cornering that I use. I've not been trained but things I've read, learnt and practised over the years.

First off find a corner to practise on. Ideally flat with no berm and a slightly soft surface for the tyres to dig in. Drop the saddle on the bike so you can put a foot out if the bike slides and give you confidence to try new things. Hardtail or rigid is best to learn on. Work on one technique at a time.

Outside foot down – weight the outside pedal hard. This loads the edge of the tyre gripping into the terrain.

Weight the inside bar grip. This again loads the edge of the tyres and obviously effects the front the most. When I first started doing this it amazed me how much it added front grip. I did find myself overdoing it and getting front wheel slides but once you get comfortable you can massively increase the grip bias to the front so the rear will either drift or be the first end to slide when the grip becomes poor.

Lean the bike over more than the rider. Weighting the bar as above will help you lean the bike over more. Try twisting your hips into the corner like this. The ideal lean angle depends on the tyre. At high speed you don't need to lean the bike over much harder as it will do so naturally. At lower speed (maybe due to poor grip conditions or tight corners) you should actively lean the bike over hard than the rider to achieve the same ideal lean angle for the edge tread.

Finally, pump the corner. Once you get confident and better at finding grip in the corner the effect of pumping the bike pushes the tyres harder in the ground and combined with the above techniques can be used to get the bike to lean over harder than the rider quickly as required while at the same time obtaining the extra grip of the pump motion.

I'd try this and consider some realtime advice from a good rider. I believe a guy called Tony here can offer a great service 🙂

Edit: Being a high mile motorbike rider I also understand your problem and get the same thing occasionally.

I had no idea turning was so complicated. In fact, I don't know how to turn. It's like walking, I don't know how to walk either. It just happens.

do this

but having Ian yell abuse at me whenever I screwed it up soon got me correcting it.

Thats the cure right there. People of Edinburgh! You ARE to shout abuse at TJ until he can corner better. 😀

Ta ( except to too tall)

SFB – this is not an issue on "natural" trails so much as you don't tend to corner so hard IME – its a trail centre thing more.

Keep thinking "I am Mike Hailwood, Kenny Roberts is a c@+()?" as you approach corners.

Ridden motorbikes all my life, I've never had my knee down – without following it… I adopt a more Hailwood style

http://www.motorsm.com/motorsport/moto/pics_moto/Mike_Hailwood_Ducati_750SS.jpg

But like you TJ, I also struggle cornering on my MTB.

SFB – this is not an issue on "natural" trails so much as you don't tend to corner so hard IME – its a trail centre thing more.

Oi! I've been to trail centres <<shiver>>, and I didn't suddenly find myself riding into trees. Corners are corners.

nedrapier – Member

Keep thinking "I am Mike Hailwood, Kenny Roberts is a c@+()?" as you approach corners.

Now that I like 🙂 it might do the trick 🙂

BR – the last bike I had was a BMW R1100RS – it wouldn't turn without a lean off style.

Its confused my little brain I think

I do it too 🙁

Automatically stick my knee out and try and lean with the bike.

Ah **** it – cornering is the least of my worries in the bad habits department. 🙄

TJ, if I might say, it sounds like you know what you need to do. IME, once you know what you're doing wrong and what the right technique is, in order to make that natural and instinctive you need to practice, practice, practice.

A bit of coaching would tell you if you've definitely got the right technique, but no amount of coaching, even the very, very best won't make that technique into an instinct.

You're up north though aren't you? If so then I heard that Jedi's doing a coaching session round GT in February which would maybe help you out. Somewhere like Electric blue is a great place to practice that sort of thing.

I've only got my knee down around Cadwell but as a biker for 30+ years I fully understand. The way round it is to ride a road bike and then you WILL put your weight on the outside pedal (alternatively try to ride a trike :))

Doug – thats were this was happening today. I was chasing TBC tho. Perhaps I need to spend a day just going up and down the blue on my own practising slowly.

Kiril – road bike? road bike ROAD BIKE??? dinnae be daft laddie.

BTW – I didn't mean to imply I got my knee down – I never did. I don't think you are allowed to get your knee down on a BMW.

Try going into the corner with the pedals level and placing the inside foot at the back, it will make it far more difficult to get your knee down.

TJ, what a coincidence! I think that trail is a lot harder to ride fast than a lot of the other trails at GT, because of the flat corners which are loose in places. You don't even need to practice at a trail, just get yourself a flat, slightly loose corner on a good downhill (not too steep) and do it a million times…

Go down your local park and practice slalom – just popping into turns round an imaginary set of cones – set your sights on a point and turn round it – do it so often that it becomes automatic.

The challenge after that is remembering which bike you are on and how to corner!

My advise about breaking this sort of habit.

1. Slow down. This will give you time to think about what you are doing and allow you to get the technique right.

2. Use this technique whenever you are riding be it on tarmac, gravel roads or singletrack.

3. Once you are comfortable with the the technique start building up speed.

This sort of correction doesn't happen overnight and it's something that you have to continually work at even if it means essentially "spoiling" a few rides by going slower and concentrating on technique.

The suggestion of doing a training day like the ones that Jedi will be offering is a good one.

and thus the bike tends to washout and be sluggish to turn so I miss the apex

That's a bad case of understeer you have there TJ 😉

FWIW I quite often lean inwards and stick my knee out on a MTB (Or on the road on my commuter) and it seems to work fine to me. 🙂
Maybe that's because the inside pedal is held high (To bend the knee) and my weight is on my outside foot? Who knows?

That's a bad case of understeer you have there TJ

I was waiting for that 🙂

thanks for all the advice chaps.

TJ – if you get it wrong on the mountainbike what is the worst that could happen ? You will lose half a second on the corner ? Slide off and skin tour knees ? The worst on a motorbike sounds way more painful.

I would be fighting to keep that habit.

I still take corners with my knee out despite not riding a motorbike for about 20 years now.

Hels – I have stopped riding the motorbikes. I was going to end up in a hedge or in jail and the days of speeding like a loon are over now anyway.

I just got really frustrated yesterday losing all my speed as I missed the apexes of each corner. Ambition bigger than my skill perhaps.

TJ, would you happen to have a Cycle speedway circuit near you? Be a great way of learning to crank the bike over weight your outside pedal and stick your outside knee into the frame… However then you have to learn to do it for RIGHT handers!!!

I'd go with the car park or other open area with a loosish surface

just do the ame turn over and over again just focusing on that one thing

keep increasing your speed with the inside leg unclipped (if you clip n) ready to dab

make sure by the end you have a good feeling for edge of the tyres gripping and whipping you round

Now every time you have a spare moment visualise yourself doing it right

My aim learning anything is to do it in a dream

No I'm not great at corners but I don't stick my knee out

Currently I'm visualiing waiting the front wheel more after two front wheel slides last weekend (both saved, one with a dab)

Wondering TJ – I presume your hanging off isn't so extreme that your butt is to one side of the saddle? Being a motorbiker myself, I would suggest keeping bum in-line with the top tube to start with, & seeing if it makes a difference. Also found, in berms, making a conscious effort to keep the body in-line with the bike with pedals level, & leaning with the turn came quite naturally.
The DirtSchool DVD's quite good for a few hints.

I have no previous motorbike history and do this also, probably because when I try to do it the other way I wash out too frequently!

TJ surely there are benefits to years of motorcycling such as the famous front-wheel lock-up braking?

😛

eg)

😯

Indeed al. I remain amazed how poor most mountainbikers are at braking 🙂

Not like that at all.

Apparently a little lock up slows you better than anything else.