Find another job. If they won’t pay the money, look elsewhere.
You may find a pragmatic response is take the job so that you have at least *some* income, then look to private research.
I had someone with masters apply for our admin role, and someone with a PhD expect lots more money than on offer for a training post in education – they assumed their biology PhD was worth more than a teacher with 10 years experience. They were disappointed.

Could you still get a martgage for a house with an £18K salary?
I remember in 1986 my boss having to lie about my salary so that I could get a mortgage! Amazing that there are still houses available for that amount. I’m gonna start house hunting up north!

I can very much imagine it would seem amazing to someone currently living in the bubble.
But the answer is yes, a quick google shows Halifax will give you £85k mortgage on a single wage of £18k, and an equally quick search shows well over 100 2bed flats to choose from <£90k in Dundee.

But anyway, enough derailing Munro’s thread.
Yes I think £22k sucks for a PhD, but no i’m not in any way surprised as PhD’s are regularly underpaid (but not quite that badly) in the private sector too.
But if its the job she want’s and will enjoy, yes I think she should take it anyway and explore opportunities to move up pay bands. At the end of the day, earning an adequate (and I assume second household wage) in a job you enjoy is not a bad place to be in.

An alternative is Jaguar Land Rover, but she thinks they’re morally bankrupt so won’t entertain it. I think it’d be alright.

Her PhD is in language after stroke from the Human Communication Science department of Sheffield, which is in the medical faculty. Outside the NHS and other universities the opportunities, which will be as a social researcher, are pretty limited I think. Private sector social research firms aren’t advertising anything (at the moment).

She’s going to accept I think, and keep applying if it turns out to be a waste of time. It does mean she can focus on finishing the PhD rather than job applications.

What kind of rapport does she have with the recruiting manager? Personally I would be speaking to them and explaining why you think you justify not being on bottom.

It’s good, he thinks she should be offered more and has argued the case on her behalf with HR. HR have come back and said no.

All I’d add is that it’s a long old game and to stick with the PhD.

It’s a worthwhile transferable qualification which shows you can stick at something and also go past training in what’s already known about a topic, and add to what’s known. This will be the case five or ten years from now when she could be doing something quite different. I don’t know many people who’ve done one and regret it. I do know a few who regret bailing.

(I applied for a job when ‘just about’ to finish a PhD, which took me a few months, what with a new baby, new house and other shizzle. Never occurred to me I’d get a pay rise as it didn’t affect how I did my work, other than not writing a thesis in the evenings.)

As many have said does the role require a PhD? If not then why would they pay extra for someone that’s over qualified? Out of interest why did your wife do a PhD, was it for personal gain or was she expecting to earn more money? If the latter then surely she did her research into the job market and looked at roles that did and didn’t require a PhD and what the pay difference was.

Long story short NHS don’t have loads of cash.

As an aside, education levels and pay is an interesting subject. When I was at Uni over 20 years ago it seemed like the default option. However I can safely say that in my career my degree, which should be relevant, hasn’t really helped me to any great extent. A few of the soft skills were useful but apart from that nada. When it comes to the kids looking at further education in 5 years time I’ll need to have a serious chat with them about what they want to do and whether a degree is actually required. Especially when you look at the cost of an average degree and how long people are paying student loans off for.

My personal experience is that I’d rather have a good worker, who’s self motivated, a good communicator and can just crack on with it. Their formal education is almost a moot point as long as they can show the above and are technically competent.

edit: Sorry reading that I sound like I’m bitching, that certainly wasn’t my intention 🙂

She can take some heart though, whilst 1% pay rises or caps are all over the news and have been for years, it doesn’t affect incremental rises – it will rise faster than inflation for the first couple of years at least subject to positive reviews.

Mrs Jay started at entry band 5, about 5 years ago and is top Band 5 as of April 18 – well, 3 days a week anyway, 2 days a week she’ll be mid band 6 – but that’s the NHS for you.

N.H.S = Not Hosting Staff

when i moved from Band 2 to Band 3 (position in a different trust) the manager at the time slotted me in at mid band 3

dirtyrider – Member
when i moved from Band 2 to Band 3 (position in a different trust) the manager at the time slotted me in at mid band 3

That’s probably as your Band 2 increment was somewhere in Band 3 already due to the overlap?

NHS doesn’t drop you to bottom of next band up – it’s a sideways slide (IME – wife is an Advanced Nurse Practioner – now Band 7 but started as newly qualified at the bottom of band 5) – she’s been qualified 11 years this year.

OP – look at the AFC bandings/increments.

NHS not the most flexible for remuneration………

A

jeffl – Member
As many have said does the role require a PhD? If not then why would they pay extra for someone that’s over qualified?

That.

The NHS does not pay according to the person but the role. the roles are banded on fairly rigorous and well defined criteria.. A band 5 role is a band 5 role. You start on increment 1 and go up each year.

So basically no to both your questions. She won’t get a higher start point and she can’t jump a level unless the role changes

However you should consider that the terms and conditions are worth a lot. sick pay, holiday pay, pensions are all very good and far beyond the private sector and worth probably 20% of more of salary. £22000 in the nhs is worth £25000+ in private industry

BTW – with 35 years exoperience I remain on band 5.

If she’d worked in the NHS elsewhere and been promoted then she’d have an argument. It’s based on experience and performing well moving up the banding. Just because you have a huger qualification doesn’t increase your pay point. Welcome the NHS.

when i moved from Band 2 to Band 3 (position in a different trust) the manager at the time slotted me in at mid band 3

Well for promotion you go across the same pay point then plus 1 so that’s what you got.

That’s probably as your Band 2 increment was somewhere in Band 3 already due to the overlap?

id only been in post 2 years, so at increment point 2 of band 2

and it wasn’t a promotion, same job role, different trust

Benefits (terms and conditions etc) are often far, far better than that in the private sector, in addition to a much greater salary.

To the OP, if she is not happy about the salary, it doesn’t sound like it’s going to change very quickly. I would only accept the role as a stopgap while she looks for something she will be happier with. Doesn’t sound like she would be starting on a positive note.

id only been in post 2 years, so at increment point 2 of band 2

and it wasn’t a promotion, same job role, different trust

1 more pay point puts you about in the middle, a job evaluation means they can consider moving you up to where you should have been had the pay band be at 3 when you got the job. Nothing to do with having a PHD.

Sounds like a hellish place to work, plus she might not get over feeling undervalued. Take the JLT job – although beware neither pension might be safe. One almost certainly not.

Good luck to you both either way.

Having worked in and around the NHS for 15 years it sounds like her chances are very slim. One thing that is certain, getting a post re banded is a hell of a lot harder than getting an increase at the start.

Only option is to find out if there are other applicants. If there are no other suitable applicants then the manager might be able to speak to someone higher up in HR who can over rule the current decision. There will be some caveat somewhere in the recruitment policy that gives the appropriate person some flexibility. The hardest thing is finding that policy and getting the right person on the phone.

It sounds like it’s a specialist post which would be hard to fill however being a band 5 it might not be high enough to appear to warrant a premium due to recruitment issues.

Don’t know how a single person could live on NHS wages.

All depends on your expenditure/outgoings etc. Mrs EGF is a band 5 senior staff nurse & with shift allowances (mainly nights when she was full time last year) was bringing home over 2k a month. She was on this before we met & she was on her own BTW.
If you couldn’t manage on that then you need to look at your finances/location etc.

If she does end up with it, do any of you reckon that having all these qualifications (and being excellent at the job, which she will be) she’ll be able to get up the pay scale reasonably quickly?

Ime if your face fits yes, if you become one of the managers sycophants anything is possible. Bitter? Moi?
I worked for 14 years in the NHS, at the beginning it was about the patients, now it’s about the £££.
Or lack of it.
Qualifications & capability don’t come into it, arse licking or joining in with those feathering their own nest is.
Thankfully (i hope) not all depts are the same.

Qualifications & capability don’t come into it, arse licking or joining in with those feathering their own nest is.

This. Happens in the prison service too.

An alternative is Jaguar Land Rover, but she thinks they’re morally bankrupt so won’t entertain it.

😯 😯
Really? In what way? They pay their taxes so would seem to have more morals than say Starbucks or Amazon.

DezB – Member

£18K was my wage in 1986. Piss take to pay ANYONE that little in 2017.

So you were earning above the average (mean) wage in 1986, congratulations.
I’m sure you’ve done your best to level the field…

NHS banding always seemed to be aimed at keeping/enticing you for a few years and then forgetting about you…forcing you out?!

I started at the bottom of one of the band 8’s, had no objectives and automatically moved up a spinepoint after 12 months – fantastic! On of my colleagues had been there 15 years and was on the same banding, at the top of the spinepoints and had her banding upgrade rejected for the last 5/6 years? This is quite demoralising for her as we were all being bumped up every year, she was getting 1% pay increases.

I’d never work for them again… (not because of that)

£380 pcm mortgage payment, lol.

The ‘bubble’ isn’t just in London, you know – my mortgage is £1600 a month and I don’t live in the south east. You can’t even buy a studio where I live for £85k.

Top band 6 here. Well was. Just left for agency work (works better for family) I’ll re join the NHS and either be bottom 6 (if I got a 6) or even worse down to bottom 5. That’s the risk I take. Bearing in mind 37.5 hours on agency at band 5 level is 15-20k more than a bottom band 5…..

The lead up to all this has been to masters degrees and a four year PhD (combined with a teaching position, hence the extra year), which she finishes in September. Between the PhD and the second masters she did a year working for Manchester Metropolitan Uni.

The job is an NHS band 5, which is between £22k and £28k. She feels that, given she has a PhD, she should be at least in the middle of this pay band but, even after HR at the NHS have reviewed her qualifications, they think she should still be at the bottom of the pay grade.

It’s a job she really wants, and jobs related to what she does are very few and far between, especially outside academia (which she’s had enough of)

Perhaps she should have took a different educational route, with work experience in the middle and with one that would provide a job at the end of it, instead of book learning and little experience for a new employer to see and accept to offer a higher pay deal

Luke- if I applied for the same job as your Mrs, also met the job requirements but didn’t have any additional qualifications, why would I not deserve the same salary? And if I also turned to be “excellent” at the job but had no PHD, would I not deserve the same chances of promotion and pay increase?

£380 pcm mortgage payment, lol.

The ‘bubble’ isn’t just in London, you know – my mortgage is £1600 a month and I don’t live in the south east. You can’t even buy a studio where I live for £85k.

Indeed, it’s quite broken, and with no obvious solution.
As evidenced by this thread, a particular wage gives a vastly different experience depending on where you live.
It’s how we end up with giant media frenzy over nurses using food banks, whilst as little as 250 miles away others are scratching their heads as the nurse next door is driving around in a nice new 1 series BMW.

There’s fairly obvious long term benefits to the inflated wages found in the ‘bubble’, but I can’t say they seem worth the short-mid term drawbacks to me.

Olly2097….

….if you go back to a band-6 role within 12 months of leaving they have to reinstate your previous pay point in that band, not start you at the bottom.

I’m just doing it currently, left a band-6 post 11 1/2 months ago and took a band-5 job, just interviewed for and been offered a band-6 post and HR contacted me to ask which point I left band-6 on as they have to put me back there as I’m returning within 12 months.

Different trust too, thought that was very honest of them, they could have just stuck me back into the bottom of band-6 and I wouldn’t have checked the small print of A4C.

During my time in the NHS (17yrs) experience and competence is more important than qualifications.
I’ve worked with some garbage new degree qualified paramedics who talk a good game but are shocking at the job… and there’s some excellent paramedics out there that trained 20yrs ago and only have internally granted and recognised qualifications and wouldn’t be able to register to practice if they tried now.

Thankfully I’ve always found that a good interview coupled with experience secures a job in the NHS.
My lack of a degree hasn’t held me back in clinical posts, when the time comes and I want to move into management I may find it’s a different story but I doubt it.

At 20yrs in the job I expect to have working experience of patient transport, the EMT/technician role, paramedic practice, ECP/PP posts, ambulance work, rapid response vehicle work, GP surgery work, community based work, walk in-centres work, working in A&E, minor injuries units, the custody/forensic environment and lastly the control room/clinical contact centre.

I reckon the NHS trusts I’ve worked for are quite correct in valuing that over qualifications but others may feel differently.

there’s some excellent paramedics out there that trained 20yrs ago and only have internally granted and recognised qualifications and wouldn’t be able to register to practice if they tried now.

If they trained 20 years ago they should have an IHCD Paramedic quaifation which is recognised by the HCPC. The lack of practicing in this quantification would mean they’d have to prove they were competent.

With those qualifications why would you even consider staying in this country?
Worlds your oyster.

Worlds your oyster

Not quite, as many employers all around the globe value experience in job as much as academic achievement these days. The classic ‘tough first job’…

OP – did your wife have an idea of salary scales in her chosen career before investing so many years effort?

I’ve got a social science PhD.

When I graduated and looked for non-academic jobs in the pubic/third sectors it seemed like having a PhD – but little-no practical experience – was considered a ‘black-mark’.

That said, a number of practical experience years down the line it’s definitely a positive thing to have.

OP: if your other half takes the job, whilst the salary might not be what she wants initially I expect (if she’s good at the job) she will rise quickly.

Rather than think of a PhD as an entitlement to a good salary, in this case like mine I think, really what you are doing is a career change.

Holy thread resurrection.

If you get a job in the NHS, say in the Midlands then the salary you’re offered has f— all to do with the salary that will be on your contract. And not in a good way.

Treat what is “offered” during the interview process as b——t and you won’t be “surprised”.

If you ignore this advice and then, perhaps, hope to get a senior manager to lobby on your behalf to get the original offer reinstated, then you will be further disappointed, both at the effort expended and the “response” they receive.

Even if you’re in a specialism that is chronically short of staff.

In the Midlands. The “west” bit.

You have been warned.